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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:39:57 PM

Title: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:39:57 PM
Fourth Lateran Council: 1215

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecuм12-2.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecuм12-2.htm)



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Constitutions  

1. Confession of Faith

(. . .)

There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved. . .


Mystici Corporis

The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church

Pope Pius XII - 1943

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm)



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10.

(. . .)

Indeed no true and perfect human society can be conceived which is not governed by some supreme authority. Christ therefore must have given to His Church a supreme authority to which all Christians must render obedience. For this reason, as the unity of the faith is of necessity required for the unity of the church, inasmuch as it is the body of the faithful, so also for this same unity, inasmuch as the Church is a divinely constituted society, unity of government, which effects and involves unity of communion, is necessary jure divino. “The unity of the Church is manifested in the mutual connection or communication of its members, and likewise in the relation of all the members of the Church to one head” (St. Thomas, 2a 2ae, 9, xxxix., a. I). From this it is easy to see that men can fall away from the unity of the Church by schism, as well as by heresy. “We think that this difference exists between heresy and schism” (writes St. Jerome): “heresy has no perfect dogmatic teaching, whereas schism, through some Episcopal dissent, also separates from the Church” (S. Hieronymus, Comment. in Epist. ad Titum, cap. iii., v. 1011). In which judgment St. John Chrysostom concurs: “I say and protest (he writes) that it is as wrong to divide the Church as to fall into heresy” (Hom. xi., in Epist. ad Ephes., n. 5). Wherefore as no heresy can ever be justifiable, so in like manner there can be no justification for schism. “There is nothing more grievous than the sacrilege of schism….there can be no just necessity for destroying the unity of the Church” (S. Augustinus, Contra Epistolam Parmeniani, lib. ii., cap. ii., n. 25).


(. . .)


59. What We have said concerning the “mystical Head” would indeed be incomplete if We were not at least briefly to touch on this saying of the same Apostle: “Christ is the Head of the Church: he is the Savior of his Body.” For in these words we have the final reason why the Body of the Church is given the name of Christ, namely, that Christ is the Divine Savior of this Body. The Samaritans were right in proclaiming Him “Savior of the world”; for indeed He most certainly is to be called the “Savior of all men,” even though we must add with Paul: “especially of the faithful, since, before all others, He has purchased with His Blood His members who constitute the Church.



St. Cyril

Catechetical Lecture 5

Of Faith

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm)

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1. How great a dignity the Lord bestows on you in transferring you from the order of Catechumens to that of the Faithful, the Apostle Paul shows, when he affirms, God is faithful, by Whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:9 For since God is called Faithful, thou also in receiving this title receive a great dignity. For as God is called Good, and Just, and Almighty, and Maker of the Universe, so is He also called Faithful. Consider therefore to what a dignity you are rising, seeing you are to become partaker of a title of God.


St. John Chrysostom

Homily 25 on the Gospel of John

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240125.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240125.htm)



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3.

(. . .)

What advantages it to be bound by the ties of earthly family, if we are not joined by those of the spiritual? What profits nearness of kin on earth, if we are to be strangers in heaven? For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful. He has not the same Head, he has not the same Father, he has not the same City, nor Food, nor Raiment, nor Table, nor House, but all are different; all are on earth to the former, to the latter all are in heaven. One has Christ for his King; the other, sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes; one has worms' work for his raiment, the other the Lord of angels; heaven is the city of one, earth of the other. Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion? Did we remove the same pangs, did we come forth from the same womb? This has nothing to do with that most perfect relationship. Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city which is above. How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country? We risk no common danger; for if it should come to pass, (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be no other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.



St. Leo the Great

Sermon 26

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360326.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360326.htm)



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II. Christians are essentially participators in the nativity of Christ

Although, therefore, that infancy, which the majesty of God's Son did not disdain, reached mature manhood by the growth of years and, when the triumph of His passion and resurrection was completed, all the actions of humility which were undertaken for us ceased, yet today's festival renews for us the holy childhood of Jesus born of the Virgin Mary: and in adoring the birth of our Saviour, we find we are celebrating the commencement of our own life. For the birth of Christ is the source of life for Christian folk, and the birthday of the Head is the birthday of the body. Although every individual that is called has his own order, and all the sons of the Church are separated from one another by intervals of time, yet as the entire body of the faithful being born in the font of baptism is crucified with Christ in His passion, raised again in His resurrection, and placed at the Father's right hand in His ascension, so with Him are they born in this nativity. For any believer in whatever part of the world that is re-born in Christ, quits the old paths of his original nature and passes into a new man by being re-born; and no longer is he reckoned of his earthly father's stock but among the seed of the Saviour, Who became the Son of man in order that we might have the power to be the sons of God.


St. Hilary of Poitiers

On the Trinity (Book VIII)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html)



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7. For as to those whose soul and heart were one, I ask whether they were one through faith in God? Yes, assuredly, through faith, for through this the soul and heart of all were one. Again I ask, is the faith one or is there a second faith? One undoubtedly, and that on the authority of the Apostle himself, who proclaims one faith even as one Lord, and one baptism, and one hope, and one God. Ephesians 4:4-5 If then it is through faith, that is, through the nature of one faith, that all are one, how is it that you do not understand a natural unity in the case of those who through the nature of one faith are one? For all were born again to innocence, to immortality, to the knowledge of God, to the faith of hope. And if these things cannot differ within themselves because there is both one hope and one God, as also there is one Lord and one baptism of regeneration; if these things are one rather by agreement than by nature, ascribe a unity of will to those also who have been born again into them. If, however, they have been begotten again into the nature of one life and eternity, then, inasmuch as their soul and heart are one, the unity of will fails to account for their case who are one by regeneration into the same nature.

8. These are not our own conjectures which we offer, nor do we falsely put together any of these things in order to deceive the ears of our hearers by perverting the meaning of words; but holding fast the form of sound teaching we know and preach the things which are true. For the Apostle shows that this unity of the faithful arises from the nature of the sacraments when he writes to the Galatians, For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. There is neither Jєω nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27-28 That these are one amid so great diversities of race, condition, sex — is it from an agreement of will or from the unity of the sacrament, since these have one baptism and have all put on one Christ? What, therefore, will a concord of minds avail here when they are one in that they have put on one Christ through the nature of one baptism?


St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Thelogica
First Part
Question 21.
Article 1.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5021.htm#article1 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5021.htm#article1)'



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I answer that, When a man enters the Church by Baptism, he is admitted to two things, viz. the body of the faithful and the participation of the sacraments: and this latter presupposes the former, since the faithful are united together in the participation of the sacraments.



St. Ambrose

On Baptism:  A Catechetical Instruction

http://www.lectionarycentral.com/trinity12/Ambrose.html (http://www.lectionarycentral.com/trinity12/Ambrose.html)


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1.

(. . .)


I shall now begin to instruct you on the sacrament you have received; of whose nature it was not fitting to speak to you before this: for in the Christian what comes first is faith.  And at Rome for this reason those who have been baptized are called the faithful (fideles).

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:40:22 PM
St. Augustine vs St. Augustine


St. Augustine

City of God

Book XIII:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120113.htm


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Chapter 7.— Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ.

For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," John 3:5 made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" Matthew 10:32 and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." Matthew 16:25 And this explains the verse, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." For what is more precious than a death by which a man's sins are all forgiven, and his merits increased an hundredfold? For those who have been baptized when they could no longer escape death, and have departed this life with all their sins blotted out have not equal merit with those who did not defer death, though it was in their power to do so, but preferred to end their life by confessing Christ, rather than by denying Him to secure an opportunity of baptism. And even had they denied Him under pressure of the fear of death, this too would have been forgiven them in that baptism, in which was remitted even the enormous wickedness of those who had slain Christ. But how abundant in these men must have been the grace of the Spirit, who breathes where He lists, seeing that they so dearly loved Christ as to be unable to deny Him even in so sore an emergency, and with so sure a hope of pardon!


Saint Augustine Against Julian

https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281 (https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281)

The Fathers of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 35

Introduction, page XI:

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St. Augustine wrote this work in the closing years of a life busied with three great controversies--Manichaeism, Donatism, Pelagianism, the last ending with the Contra Julianum and the Opus imperfectum contra Julianum.



Page 258:



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Chapter 4
 
(. . .)
 
Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, are born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12
 
(. . .)
 
11 John 6.59.
12 John 6.44.

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:40:38 PM
I wonder, did Emperor Valentinian ask for the grace of Baptism, or the sacrament which bestows the grace?


St. Ambrose versus St. Ambrose



St. Ambrose

The Fathers of The Church: A New Translation

Volume 22,  Funeral Orations

Page 287 - 288

http://archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur012812mbp#page/n313/mode/2up


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(51) But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?* But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified his desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7).



St. Ambrose

On the Mysteries

Chapter 4:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3405.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3405.htm)


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20. Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit, 1 John 5:7 are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again, is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: "For except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain the gift of spiritual grace.


Letter 53, St. Ambrose to the Emperor Theodosius

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ambrose_letters_06_letters51_60.htm (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ambrose_letters_06_letters51_60.htm)


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2.  I am filled, I confess, with bitter grief, not only because the death of Valentinian has been premature, but also because, having been trained in the faith and moulded by your teaching, he had conceived such devotion towards our God, and was so tenderly attached to myself, as to love one whom he had before persecuted, and to esteem as his father the man whom he had before repulsed as his enemy.

(. . .)

4.  But hereafter we shall have time for sorrow; let us now care for his sepulture, which your Clemency has commanded to take place in this city. If he has died without Baptism, I now keep back what I know.

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:40:59 PM
St. Gregory nαzιanzen

Oration 40

The Oration on Holy Baptism.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310240.htm



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XXIII.

(. . .)

If you judge the murderously disposed man by his will alone, apart from the act of murder, then you may reckon as baptized him who desired baptism apart from the reception of baptism. But if you cannot do the one how can you do the other? I cannot see it.
Or, if you like, we will put it thus:— If desire in your opinion has equal power with actual baptism, then judge in the same way in regard to glory, and you may be content with longing for it, as if that were itself glory. And what harm is done you by your not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have the desire for it?


Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:41:18 PM
Council of Trent

1545-1563

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm


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Canons on the Sacraments in General:

(Canon 4)

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.


St. Bernard Of Clairvaux

On Baptism And The Office of the Bishops,

Pages 159 - 160

You have to login Amazon to view the pages, and clicking the cover of the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Bernard-Clairvaux-Baptism-Bishops-Cistercian/dp/0879071672/


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8. It would be hard, believe me, to tear me away from these two pillars--I mean Augustine and Ambrose. I own to going along with them in wisdom or in error, for I too believe that a person can be saved by faith alone, through the desire to receive the sacrament, but only if such a one is forestalled by death or prevented by some other insuperable force from implementing this devout desire. Perhaps this was why the Savior, when he said: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, took care not to repeat 'whoever is not baptized', but only, whoever does not believe will be condemned, imitating strongly that faith is sometimes sufficient for salvation and that without it nothing suffices.  
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 09:59:01 PM
So who is going to be the one to dare to claim an idol worshiping Hindu may be in actuality a Catholic, numbered among the faithful?

Don't be bashful.

Idol worshiping is a mortal sin, or did Bishop Fellay forget that?

Angelus, April 2006

http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2497


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Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.

But these things are so invisible, so subjective, that the Church has hardly spoken about it. We know the principle, but the Church has never made a practical application of it because it is too sensitive and delicate. Who can know who is in the state of grace or not? The Council of Trent teaches that no one can know it except through a special revelation or illumination from God.


And to think the Church was a visible society united in the public profession of the same faith and in the celebration of the sacraments.



Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:09:06 PM
Concerning post # 4.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687079/#msg687079


Looking at the table of contents of the book, it appears that the quote is from a letter St. Bernard had written to Hugh of Saint Victor.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:20:17 PM
I think the part "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers", means those who do not live up to their consciences, those who do not seek good and avoid evil.



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2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


St. Thomas Aquinas

Quaestiones disputatae de veritate

Question Fourteen: Faith

ARTICLE XI: In the eleventh article we ask: Is it necessary to believe explicitly?

http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g3i.htm (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g3i.htm)


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1. We should not posit any proposition from which an untenable conclusion follows. But, if we claim that explicit belief is necessary for salvation, an untenable conclusion follows. For it is possible for someone to be brought up in the forest or among wolves, and such a one cannot have explicit knowledge of any matter of faith. Thus, there will be a man who will inevitably be damned. But this is untenable. Hence, explicit belief in something does not seem necessary.

Answers to Difficulties

1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:25:30 PM
There's the truth of invincible ignorance. If such souls seek God with an upright heart, He will not let them remain in their invincible ignorance.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:38:17 PM
St. Augustine

On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book IV)

Chapter 21

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm



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29. With regard to the objection brought against Cyprian, that the catechumens who were seized in martyrdom, and slain for Christ's name's sake, received a crown even without baptism, I do not quite see what it has to do with the matter, unless, indeed, they urged that heretics could much more be admitted with baptism to Christ's kingdom, to which catechumens were admitted without it, since He Himself has said, "Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 Now, in this matter I do not hesitate for a moment to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with love for God, before the baptized heretic; nor yet do we thereby do dishonor to the sacrament of baptism which the latter has already received, the former not as yet; nor do we consider that the sacrament of the catechumen is to be preferred to the sacrament of baptism, when we acknowledge that some catechumens are better and more faithful than some baptized persons. For the centurion Cornelius, before baptism, was better than Simon, who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit. Cornelius, however, would have been convicted of contempt for so holy a sacrament, if, even after he had received the Holy Ghost, he had refused to be baptized.

(. . .)



A Practical Commentary On Holy Scripture by Frederick Justus Knecht D.D.

CHAPTER XCII

THE CONVERSION OF CORNELIUS

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913 (https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913)



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The graces of Redemption can be received only through the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, He might Himself have imparted to him all necessary instruction, and the grace of regeneration. He did not, however, do so, but sent to him the priest Ananias to teach him and baptize him. Our Blessed Lord acted in the same way regarding the conversion of Cornelius. He neither taught him directly Himself, nor by the mouth of an angel, but commanded him to send for Peter, and hear his words. Nor did the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Cornelius and his companions make Baptism superfluous; for each one had to be baptized, and be thus received into the Church by her ministers. It is only by the exercise of the threefold—teaching, pastoral, and priestly—office of the Church, that men can be united and reconciled to our Lord Jesus Christ. He who despises and neglects the means of grace entrusted to the Church cannot receive grace; and he who says that the priesthood is unnecessary, falls into a most fatal error. St. Paul writes thus (1 Cor. 4:1): “Let a man so account of us as the ministers of God, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.”

Baptism is the first and most necessary of the Sacraments. The Holy Ghost descended visibly on Corneiius and his companions, and imparted to them the gift of tongues, in order to convince the Jєωιѕн Christians that the Gentiles need not first become Jєωs before they could receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost. This outpouring of the Holy Ghost prepared them for a worthy reception of holy Baptism, but it was only by their Baptism that they received the grace of regeneration, and became members of the Body of Christ, that is, His Church.

The good works of sinners. Cornelius was convinced of the nothingness of the pagan gods, and believed in One Invisible God, the Creator of heaven and earth. He also observed the moral law which God has written in the hearts of men, and which He revealed in the ten Commandments. He constantly prayed to God for guidance and knowledge of the truth; and he supplemented his prayers by works of mercy and almsgiving. Now, these good works of prayer and almsgiving were indeed supernatural good works, but still could not directly merit for Cornelius everlasting happiness, for only those good works which are performed in a state of sanctifying grace have meritorious value for heaven. Because Cornelius corresponded with divine grace, he received the further gift of faith, and by Baptism received sanctifying grace.

The following virtues are to be found in Cornelius:

1. He was religious, for he prayed continually, and honoured God, and according to his lights strove after religious truth.
2. He was conscientious, for, as far as his conscience taught him, he observed God’s commandments, obeyed the will of God, and kept himself from sin.
3. He was charitable and compassionate, working for the good of his neighbour. He practised not only the corporal but also the spiritual works of mercy, by inviting his friends to hear the words of Peter, and thus leading them to the true faith.
4. He was obedient to God’s command to send for Peter, and he thereby obtained salvation.
5. He was humble. If he had said to himself: “What can an uneducated fisherman like Peter do for me, a cultivated Roman?” he would not have obtained the gift of faith in Jesus Christ.
6. He believed the word of God, as it was announced to him by Peter, and therefore he received the gift of faith from the Holy Ghost, and the grace of Baptism.

Indifferentism in matters of faith. The sentence in Peter’s discourse: “In every nation he that feareth God and worketh justice is acceptable to Him”, has been interpreted by people either indifferent about, or weak in faith, to mean: “It is all the same what people believe, or what religious creed they profess, if only they live good lives.” Now is this principle, that religion and faith are matters of indifference, correct? No! it is utterly false and un-Christian, and that for these reasons: 1. Peter did not say: “Faith does not signify”; for he was, on the contrary, most anxious to convert Cornelius to the true faith; but his words meant rather that nationality does not signify—it does not matter what nation a man belongs to, for all nations are called to believe in Jesus Christ, and all persons, to whatever nation they may belong, are acceptable to Him, if, as Cornelius did, they keep the commandments and strive after a knowledge of the truth. Such men, being acceptable to God, are called by Him to believe the true faith, and thereby obtain salvation. 2. Peter, at the end of his discourse, expressly teaches that no one can obtain forgiveness of sins but through faith in Jesus (compare with this his words in chapter LXXXV: “There is no other Name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”; Acts 4:12). 3. If no account was to be made of holding the true faith, St. Peter need not have preached to Cornelius, and need not have baptized him. 4. If it be a matter of indifference what faith a man holds, then the whole revelation of God would have been unnecessary, and it would have been quite superfluous for our Lord Jesus Christ to have come into the world, to have taught the true faith, and founded His Church. 5. The principle that it does not signify what a man believes is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gospels, in which we find our Blessed Lord so often demanding faith in Himself and His doctrine (see, for example, chapter XV). There is only one true God, one Saviour, and one true faith, which Jesus Christ taught and bequeathed to the Church that He founded. Any indifference in matters of faith, or any admiration of it in others must come from a want of firm religious convictions, and is a grievous sin against faith.

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:48:45 PM
The Athanasian Creed

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm


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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

(. . .)


Pius IX - 1849
Nostis Et Nobiscuм
On the Church in the Pontifical States

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm)



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10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.


From the letter "Super quibusdam" to the Consolator, the Catholicon of the Armenians, Sept. 20, 1351:

Denzinger 1051 570b

http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/dw1.htm (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/dw1.htm)


Quote
In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.


Mirari Vos
On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism
Gregory XVI - 1832

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm)



Quote
13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.

They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”


Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm)


Quote
2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages. Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:


(. . .)


Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.



Is a person who is flooded with divine light and grace going to remain invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith? Are such going to remain sitting in darkness, ignorant of this faith, without which no man can be saved?


Pius IX

On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm)


Quote

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

19.

(. . .)

Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.


Leo XIII


Quote
On Mission Societies, 1880

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm)
6.

(. . .)

Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?



Pius IX

Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847:

The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate by John Gilmary Shea, published 1877, pgs. 97 - 103

https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877 (https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877)


Quote
It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.


But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.



Pope Pius XI - 1928

Mortalium Animos
On Religious Unity


Quote
13.

(. . .)

We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.



1582 A.D. Rheims New Testament

https://archive.org/details/1610A.d.DouayOldTestament1582A.d.RheimsNewTestament_176/page/n2729 (https://archive.org/details/1610A.d.DouayOldTestament1582A.d.RheimsNewTestament_176/page/n2729)


Hebrew 11:6

page 630:


Quote
But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that commeth to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Annotations, Chapter 11

page 632:

https://archive.org/details/1610A.d.DouayOldTestament1582A.d.RheimsNewTestament_176/page/n2731 (https://archive.org/details/1610A.d.DouayOldTestament1582A.d.RheimsNewTestament_176/page/n2731)



Quote
6. He that commeth. Faith is the foundation and ground of all other virtues, and worship of God, without which no man can please God. Therefore if one be a Jєω, a heathen, or an heretic, that is to say, he be without the Catholic faith, all his works shall profit him no whit to salvation.



St. Peter Canisius

http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/salvation2-4b.htm (http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/salvation2-4b.htm)


Quote
Outside this communion, as outside the Ark of Noah, there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jєωs or pagans who never received the faith of the Church; not for heretics who, having received it, forsook or corrupted it; not for schismatics who left the peace and unity of the Church; and finally, neither for excommunicated persons who for any other serious cause deserved to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members. For the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: that man will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his Mother.


Saint John Eudes

Man's Contract with God in Baptism, pages 49 - 52

Quote
That you may have a true faith in those things which God has revealed, it is necessary that you should believe in the Catholic Church, in which alone you can learn with certainty what God has revealed. For this reason, after you have been asked if you believe in God, you are also asked if you believe in the Catholic Church.

Certainly those who do not believe in the Catholic Church cannot have divine faith in the mysteries which they believe, but only natural and human faith; a faith of their own fancy, founded on the light of their own judgment, subject to error, and not on the promises of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church alone possesses these promises, and on her testimony alone rests the foundation of Christian faith. As she possesses the divine promises for all days, even to the end of ages, there can be no reason to doubt whatever she proposes to our belief.

Thank God for having given you the precious gift of faith, and having made you a child of the holy Catholic Church, which is the faithful repository of the truths of salvation, and which all Christians are obliged to acknowledge as the true Church. In saying, “I believe in the holy Catholic Church’ you united yourself inseparably to this holy mother; you believe, without hesitation, all that she proposes, as proposed to you by Jesus Christ himself, who is ever with her in her instructions. Reject, then, with horror, everything at variance with her teachings, and regard it as an error calculated to endanger your faith.

However ignorant you may be, you have the true faith if you believe, without exception, all the holy Catholic Church believes and teaches; on the other hand, however learned you may be, you lose the gift and the virtue of faith if you reject any doctrine which she teaches; for her faith is your rule. “As there is but one faith,” says St. Paul, “to wish to divide it, is to destroy it.” Heretics not only differ from the Church in faith, but they also differ amongst themselves, a proof that they have not the true faith, which is one. The holy Catholic Church never has suffered, and never will suffer, a difference of faith in regard to any article. Her faith is the same in all times, in all places, and in all her true children. Thus her faith is one and the only true faith. You should be most desirous to preserve the faith in all its purity, since without it, it is impossible to do anything which merits Heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Those who do not possess it may practice all the moral virtues, justice, sobriety, chastity, alms-deeds, prayers, mortification; and not only is this the case with heretics, but it is a truth which should be borne in mind, that these good actions, unless they have faith for their principle, will never merit Heaven for them. The law of Moses, all holy as it was, could save only those who observed it through faith.

When, therefore, you observe that those who believe not in the Church, practice some good works, offer many prayers, and lead an austere life, do not believe that they are on this account in the way of salvation, unless they have true faith; you commit an ENORMOUS SIN if you believe that they can be saved outside of the Church; that they can have faith without believing in her, or that they can be saved without faith.

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:49:36 PM
Mother Angelica


Quote
There was a heresy at one time that you had to be Catholic, otherwise you didn't go to Heaven. That's not what the Church teaches. All people are saved by the merits of Jesus, the grace in the Church, but they don't have to be Catholic. We hope they're all Catholic, but many people are of different religions, no religion, they don't know. Nobody has told them about Jesus, so they're going to be judged only by what they know, what they've been told, and the graces they have, you see.  You know what our dear Lord said: there are other people that we must save, and will enter the Kingdom.


At the video go to timestamp 48:20

Mother Angelica Live
ROAD TO EMMAUS

5/16/2000


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dWVboaTYRo
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:53:11 PM
Bishop Sanborn

Ecclesiology Debate: Bp. Donald Sanborn vs. Dr. Robert Fastiggi (2004)


Quote
In Vatican II we see this repeated, over and over again, that if you are in full communion it means that you are completely reconciled to the Roman Catholic Church, but at the same time, if you are in partial communion it means you have somethings in common, somethings not in common.


Timestamp 4:54



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NigK6MhXs6Q



Frankenchurch Rises Again: Ratzinger on the Church

Rev. Anthony Cekada

http://www.fathercekada.com/2007/07/16/frankenchurch-rises-again-ratzinger-on-the-church/ (http://www.fathercekada.com/2007/07/16/frankenchurch-rises-again-ratzinger-on-the-church/)


Quote
According to Vatican II, John Paul II’s Code of Canon Law and Ratzinger’s Catechism of the Catholic Church, all those who have been baptized — Catholics, heretics, schismatics — are incorporated into the “People of God.” This endows them with “degrees of incorporation” into, degrees of “communion” with, or “elements” of, the Church of Christ, which work out as follows:

(1) Catholics: Full incorporation or communion, or all elements of the Church of Christ.
(2) Schismatics and heretics: Partial incorporation or communion, or some elements of the Church of Christ.

Having all elements of the Church is best, but having just some of them is pretty good too.

If you are in the second category and “partially incorporated,” you have “invisible bonds of communion” that somehow attach you to the Church of Christ.

That is why I call it “Frankenchurch.” The Church is not an integral entity, but a monster stitched together with visible and invisible bonds, full and partial, from disparate parts — Catholics, heretics and schismatics.


www.stdominicchapel.com/public_html/content/docuмents/ecclesiology.pdf (http://www.stdominicchapel.com/public_html/content/docuмents/ecclesiology.pdf)

Commentary:

Page 5


Quote
Those who hold even one doctrine at variance with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church are to be considered alien to the Church. Therefore they are not in “partial communion.”



Bishop Sanborn, what say you?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Protestant in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Protestant publicly espouses his Protestant religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say an Eastern "Orthodox" in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Eastern "Orthodox" publicly espouses his Eastern "Orthodox" religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Muslim in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Muslim publicly espouses his Islamic religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Jєω in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Jєω publicly espouses his тαℓмυdic religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Buddhist in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Buddhist publicly espouses his Buddhist religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Hindu in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Hindu publicly espouses his Brahman religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 06, 2020, 10:58:37 PM
Praeter, would you be so kind as to answer the questions I've proposed to Bishop Sanborn

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: Praeter on February 07, 2020, 08:38:55 AM

Bishop Sanborn, what say you?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Protestant in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Protestant publicly espouses his Protestant religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say an Eastern "Orthodox" in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Eastern "Orthodox" publicly espouses his Eastern "Orthodox" religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?

Yes they would.  What they would both have in common with Catholics is supernatural faith, hope and charity, and they would also be united to the Soul of the Church along with Catholics.  If you interpret Vatican II as meaning that, there's nothing wrong with what it teaches.


Quote
The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Muslim in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Muslim publicly espouses his Islamic religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Jєω in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Jєω publicly espouses his тαℓмυdic religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Buddhist in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Buddhist publicly espouses his Buddhist religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?


The CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  would say a Hindu in invincible ignorance, if he be in good faith, would be united to the Church by desire.  He is said to have supernatural faith, hope, and charity, he is united to the Catholic Church, but this Hindu publicly espouses his Brahman religion. Is it not fair to say that he has somethings in common, somethings not in common with Catholics?

These are all in a different category. The only way one of them could have supernatural faith, hope and charity, is by secretly adhering to the true faith internally, without yet having externally abandoned thefalse  religion that are converting from, or by receiving an actual grace at the moment of death, and accepting the true faith then.  If either of these two scenarios were the case, what they would have in common with Catholics is the same thing the Protestant and Orthodox mentioned above had it common. And if you interpret Vatican II as meaning that, there is nothing wrong with what it teaches.  Let me clarify that last point.  There would be nothing wrong with what it teaches for anyone who accepts the theology of the Catholic Church before Vatican II.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on September 19, 2020, 11:53:11 AM
Catholic Encyclopedia > F > The Faithful

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05769a.htm


Quote
The Faithful

Those who have bound themselves to a religious association, whose doctrine they accept, and into whose rites they have been initiated. Among Christians the term is applied to those who have been fully initiated by baptism

(. . .)


Strictly speaking, therefore, the term faithful is opposed to catechumen; hence, it is not met in the writings of these early Christian Fathers who flourished before the organization of the catechumenate. It is not found in St. Justin nor in St. Irenæus of Lyons;

Tertullian, however, uses it, and reproaches the heretics for obliterating all distinction between catechumens and the faithful: quis catechumenus, quis fidelis incertum est (De praeser., c. xli; P.L., II, 56).

Henceforth, in the patristic writings and canons of councils we meet quite frequently the antithesis of catechumens and baptized Christians, Christians and faithful.

Thus St. Augustine (Tract. in Joannem, xliv, 2; P.L., XXXV, 1714): "Ask a man: are you a Christian? If he be a pagan or a Jєω, he will reply: I am not a Christian. But if he say: I am a Christian, ask him again: are you a catechumen, or one of the faithful?"


Tertullian

Prescription against Heretics

Chapter 41

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm




Quote
I must not omit an account of the conduct also of the heretics— how frivolous it is, how worldly, how merely human, without seriousness, without authority, without discipline, as suits their creed. To begin with, it is doubtful who is a catechumen, and who a believer; they have all access alike, they hear alike, they pray alike — even heathens, if any such happen to come among them.



St. Augustine

Tractates on the Gospel of John

Tractate 44 (John 9)

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701044.htm


Quote
2. The Lord came: what did He do? He set forth a great mystery. "He spat on the ground," He made clay of His spittle; for the Word was made flesh. "And He anointed the eyes of the blind man." The anointing had taken place, and yet he saw not. He sent him to the pool which is called Siloam. But it was the evangelist's concern to call our attention to the name of this pool; and he adds, "Which is interpreted, Sent." You understand now who it is that was sent; for had He not been sent, none of us would have been set free from iniquity. Accordingly he washed his eyes in that pool which is interpreted, Sent — he was baptized in Christ. If, therefore, when He baptized him in a manner in Himself, He then enlightened him; when He anointed Him, perhaps He made him a catechumen. In many different ways indeed may the profound meaning of such a sacramental act be set forth and handled; but let this suffice your Charity. You have heard a great mystery.

Ask a man, Are you a Christian? His answer to you is, I am not, if he is a pagan or a Jєω. But if he says, I am; you inquire again of him, Are you a catechumen or a believer? If he reply, A catechumen; he has been anointed, but not yet washed.

But how anointed? Inquire, and he will answer you. Inquire of him in whom he believes. In that very respect in which he is a catechumen he says, In Christ. See, I am speaking in a way both to the faithful and to catechumens. What have I said of the spittle and the clay? That the Word was made flesh. This even catechumens hear; but that to which they have been anointed is not all they need; let them hasten to the font if they are in search of enlightenment.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on September 19, 2020, 12:14:02 PM
The Mystical Body of Christ is the Body of the faithful.

The faithful are His members who constitute the Church.

The faithful are those who have been baptized with water and profess the true faith, and have not separated themselves from the Church.






Mystici Corporis
The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church
Pope Pius XII - 1943

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm


Quote
11. After pondering all this long and seriously before God We consider it part of Our pastoral duty to explain to the entire flock of Christ through this Encyclical Letter the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ and of the union in this Body of the faithful with the divine Redeemer;

Quote
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.


Quote
30.

(. . .) it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been united to this Mystical Body through the waters of Baptism except by the salutary virtue of the Cross, by which they had been already brought under the complete sway of Christ.

Quote
59.

(. . .)

The Samaritans were right in proclaiming Him “Savior of the world”; for indeed He most certainly is to be called the “Savior of all men,” even though we must add with Paul: “especially of the faithful, since, before all others, He has purchased with His Blood His members who constitute the Church.



Summo Iugiter Studio
On Mixed Marriages
Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm



Quote
History of Dictum Against Mixed Marriages

5. Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: “Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.” Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: “Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ.” Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: “There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.” Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses and that which other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.

Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on February 21, 2021, 08:53:47 PM
Adding portions that I missed.


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687078/#msg687078




St. Gregory nαzιanzen

Oration 40

The Oration on Holy Baptism.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310240.htm


Quote
XVI.

(. . .) despise not to be and to be called Faithful. As long as you are a Catechumen you are but in the porch of Religion; you must come inside, and cross the court, and observe the Holy Things, and look into the Holy of Holies, and be in company with the Trinity.

Quote
XXIII. And so also in those who fail to receive the Gift, some are altogether animal or bestial, according as they are either foolish or wicked; and this, I think, has to be added to their other sins, that they have no reverence at all for this Gift, but look upon it as a mere gift — to be acquiesced in if given them, and if not given them, then to be neglected. Others know and honour the Gift, but put it off; some through laziness, some through greediness. Others are not in a position to receive it, perhaps on account of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance through which they are prevented from receiving it, even if they wish.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on April 27, 2021, 10:54:51 PM
St. Thomas Aquinas:

https://catholicism.org/doctrinalsummary.html


Quote
“But the unity of the Church exists primarily because of the unity of faith; for the Church is nothing else than the aggregate of the faithful. And because without faith it is impossible to please God, for this reason there is no room for salvation outside the Church. Now the salvation of the faithful is consummated through the sacraments of the Church, in which [sacraments] the power of the Passion of Christ is effective.” 38

(. . .)


38 St. Thomas Aquinas, Exposition Primae Decretalis ad Archdiaconum Tudertinum , edited by Fr. Raymond A. Verardo, O.P., Opusculum Theologica, Vol. I, Marietta, Turin, 1954, p. 425.



Page 425 of Opusculum Theologica, Vol. I, is attached.

See number 1182.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on April 27, 2021, 11:36:13 PM
The Catechetical instructions of Saint Thomas Aquinas, Translated by Rev. Joseph B. Collins, S.S., D.D., Ph.D. , published in 1939


https://archive.org/details/catecheticalinst0000thom


Page 51:


Quote
The Church is Catholic, that is, universal. Firstly, it is universal in place, because it is worldwide. This is contrary to the error of the Donatists. For the Church is a congregation of the faithful; and since the faithful are in every part of the world, so also is the Church: “Your faith is spoken of in the whole world.” And also: “Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.”


Scan of page 51 attached.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2021, 06:29:13 AM
Mother Angelica



At the video go to timestamp 48:20

Mother Angelica Live
ROAD TO EMMAUS

5/16/2000


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dWVboaTYRo

Yes, this is the same thinking +Lefebvre expressed, that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means that everyone who is saved is saved BY the merits of Christ, whether they know it or not.  In other words, Karl Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity.  Rahner said that same thing.  In fact, he was criticized by the more radical Modernists for including the stipulation that they must be saved by and through Christ.

THIS is THE heresy of our age.  I listen to people like Dr. David Anders on EWTN radio, and that guy is solidly Catholic on 95% of all his theology.  But then when EENS comes up or the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, he goes Protestant heretic.

Traditional Catholics need to understand that this is THE theological error behind Vatican II and the V2 apostasy.

JP2 was solid on MOST things ... except that he was one of the biggest promoters of religious indifferentism in history.

If I were to be persuaded that non-Catholics could be saved, then I would make peace with the Novus Ordo, since then I'd believe the same things that all these people do.

Here Mother Angelica goes so far as to claim that EENS is HERESY.  So they have reinterpreted EENS dogma to mean the exact opposite of what it says.  That totally destroys all dogma in the Church, and hands the victory to the Modernists, whose big idea was that the understanding of dogmas can change over time.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2021, 06:34:59 AM
Monsignor Fenton wrote a paper where he admitted that the term "faithful" refers only to the baptized and positively excludes catechumens.

So how then did he get around the dogmatic teaching that there's no salvation outside the Church OF THE FAITHFUL?

He claims that one can be INSIDE the Church of the Faithful without being one of the FAITHFUL.

I call this undigested hamburger ecclesiology.  Just as a hamburger enters the body but is not actually part of the body.  It's like a foreign substance in the body, a parasite that goes along for the ride to heaven.

That's how ridiculous this has become.

That is why the Church has to define EENS over and over again.  So now the Church will have to be more specific to condemn the Fentonian "interpretation" of No Salvation Outside the Church of the FAITHFUL.

This particular dogmatic definition comes THE closest to rendering BoD, BoD in the sense of SALVATION (vs. justification) heretical.  On that other thread I started about "Ladislausian soteriology" I explained that St. Amborse, for instance, believed that there's a BoD of justification vs. salvation.  Even that article from St. Benedict Center and the Dimonds feel that St. Ambrose is contradicting himself.  He's not.  He's distinguishing between justification "washing" and salvation.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 28, 2021, 08:37:20 AM
Yes, this is the same thinking +Lefebvre expressed, that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means that everyone who is saved is saved BY the merits of Christ, whether they know it or not...

THIS is THE heresy of our age.  I listen to people like Dr. David Anders on EWTN radio, and that guy is solidly Catholic on 95% of all his theology.  But then when EENS comes up or the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, he goes Protestant heretic.

Traditional Catholics need to understand that this is THE theological error behind Vatican II and the V2 apostasy.

JP2 was solid on MOST things ... except that he was one of the biggest promoters of religious indifferentism in history.

Then there is this gem from the man I understand to be one of main heroes of what styles itself "the Resistance":

https://novusordowatch.org/2015/07/bishop-williamson-novus-ordo-mass/

https://inveritateblog.com/2015/07/29/christ-or-belial/

I was not paying attention to anything within Traddieland for several years.  Why bother?  However, this absolutely Modernist BOMB from 2015 should have caused Bp. Williamson to get universally roasted.  Apparently, it did not.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on April 28, 2021, 08:54:08 AM
I got in trouble with Matthew in posting an article from Novus Ordo Watch. I hope you have more luck gladius.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 28, 2021, 09:26:00 AM
I got in trouble with Matthew in posting an article from Novus Ordo Watch. I hope you have more luck gladius.

Thanks for the heads up, RC.  Taking down the article/video, chastising me, etc., cannot undo what was said by Bp. Williamson on this occasion -- yikes! -- and "handling" it in such a manner would be rather Facebook-ian, eh?
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: josefamenendez on April 28, 2021, 02:28:33 PM
Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 28, 2021, 05:21:18 PM
Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
 
I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.

Slipped?  You are FAR too kind.  It was an endlessly rambling catastrophe!

Still, this thread has a different/separate topic.  I will address his Bıdɛn-esque debacle elsewhere.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on April 28, 2021, 10:05:19 PM
St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Church Militant (De Controversiis)


Quote
CHAPTER II: On the Definition of the Church

(. . .)

The Catholic teaching is that the Church is only one, not two, and that the body of men of the same Christian profession and of the same Sacraments gathered in communion is one and true, under the rule of legitimate pastors and especially of the one Vicar of Christ on Earth, the Roman Pontiff.

From such a definition it can be clearly understood which men pertain to the Church and which do not.

For there are three parts of this definition; the profession of the true faith, the communion of the Sacraments, and subjection to the legitimate pastor, the Roman Pontiff.

By the reasoning of the first all infidels and those who have never entered the Church are excluded, such as Jєωs, Turks, and Pagans; then those who were in the Church but left, such as heretics and apostates. By the reasoning of the second part, all Catechumens and excommunicates are excluded, because they have not been admitted to the communion of the Sacraments, these are sent out; by reasoning of the third, all schismatics are excluded, that is those who have the faith and the Sacraments, but are not under the legitimate pastor, and therefore profess the faith and receive the Sacraments outside of the Church. Yet, all others, even the base, wicked and impious are included.

This is the difference between our teaching and all others, that all others require external virtues to constitute someone in the Church, and for that reason they make the Church invisible; but even though we believe all virtues (e.g. faith, hope and charity and the rest), are discovered in the Church, still that someone could absolutely be called part of the true Church, on which the Scriptures speak, we do not think any internal virtue is required, but only the external profession of faith, as well as the communion of the Sacraments which is taken up in that sense. For the Church is a body of men that is just as visible and palpable as the body of the Roman people, or the Kingdom of France, or the Republic of Venice.



Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: Struthio on April 29, 2021, 12:51:35 AM
Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.

Did you make up the term "incrementalism"? Is it anything else than Conciliar BS?
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: Meg on April 29, 2021, 03:00:38 PM
I liked that part of the video where +W, just prior to when he told the woman that she could attend the NO, said:...."I know some will think that I'm committing trad heresy by saying this, but...." Or something very similar.

What is refreshing about +W is that he doesn't take orders, when it comes to what he thinks, from laymen. He's his own person, and some are not happy with that. Oh well.
Title: Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
Post by: trad123 on July 12, 2022, 10:54:10 PM
Pius XII


Mediator Dei, On the Sacred Liturgy, 1947

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12media.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12media.htm)




Quote
43. In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.






The Teaching of the Catholic Church: A Summary of Catholic Doctrine, Volume II by Canon George D. Smith

https://archive.org/details/teachingofthecat010346mbp/page/n27/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/teachingofthecat010346mbp/page/n27/mode/2up)



Page 666



Quote
The teaching of St. Augustine is so full that it might well fill a volume. The Church is the body of Christ and the Holy Ghost is the soul of that body ; for the Holy Ghost does in the Church all that the soul does in all the members of one body ; hence the Holy Ghost is for the body of Jesus, which is the Church, what the soul is for the human body. Therefore if we wish to live of the Holy Ghost, if we wish to remain united to him, we must preserve charity,love truth, will unity, and persevere in the Catholic faith ; for just as a member amputated from the body is no longer vivified by the soul, so he who has ceased to belong to the Church receives no more the life of the Holy Spirit. 4 " The Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ . . . outside that body the Holy Spirit gives life to no man . . consequently those who are outside the Church have not the Holy Spirit." 5 " His body is the Church, not this Church or that Church, but the Church throughout the whole world ; . . .for the whole Church, consisting of all the faithful, since all the faithful are members of Christ, has in Heaven that Head which rules his body." 6 In his De Unitate Ecclesiae (2), he tells us that " the Church is the body of Christ, as the Apostle teaches. 7 Whence it is manifest that he who is not a member of Christ cannot share in the salvation of Christ.