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Author Topic: One Universal Church of the Faithful  (Read 3965 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2020, 11:53:11 AM »
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  • Catholic Encyclopedia > F > The Faithful

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05769a.htm


    Quote
    The Faithful

    Those who have bound themselves to a religious association, whose doctrine they accept, and into whose rites they have been initiated. Among Christians the term is applied to those who have been fully initiated by baptism

    (. . .)


    Strictly speaking, therefore, the term faithful is opposed to catechumen; hence, it is not met in the writings of these early Christian Fathers who flourished before the organization of the catechumenate. It is not found in St. Justin nor in St. Irenæus of Lyons;

    Tertullian, however, uses it, and reproaches the heretics for obliterating all distinction between catechumens and the faithful: quis catechumenus, quis fidelis incertum est (De praeser., c. xli; P.L., II, 56).

    Henceforth, in the patristic writings and canons of councils we meet quite frequently the antithesis of catechumens and baptized Christians, Christians and faithful.

    Thus St. Augustine (Tract. in Joannem, xliv, 2; P.L., XXXV, 1714): "Ask a man: are you a Christian? If he be a pagan or a Jєω, he will reply: I am not a Christian. But if he say: I am a Christian, ask him again: are you a catechumen, or one of the faithful?"


    Tertullian

    Prescription against Heretics

    Chapter 41

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm




    Quote
    I must not omit an account of the conduct also of the heretics— how frivolous it is, how worldly, how merely human, without seriousness, without authority, without discipline, as suits their creed. To begin with, it is doubtful who is a catechumen, and who a believer; they have all access alike, they hear alike, they pray alike — even heathens, if any such happen to come among them.



    St. Augustine

    Tractates on the Gospel of John

    Tractate 44 (John 9)

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701044.htm


    Quote
    2. The Lord came: what did He do? He set forth a great mystery. "He spat on the ground," He made clay of His spittle; for the Word was made flesh. "And He anointed the eyes of the blind man." The anointing had taken place, and yet he saw not. He sent him to the pool which is called Siloam. But it was the evangelist's concern to call our attention to the name of this pool; and he adds, "Which is interpreted, Sent." You understand now who it is that was sent; for had He not been sent, none of us would have been set free from iniquity. Accordingly he washed his eyes in that pool which is interpreted, Sent — he was baptized in Christ. If, therefore, when He baptized him in a manner in Himself, He then enlightened him; when He anointed Him, perhaps He made him a catechumen. In many different ways indeed may the profound meaning of such a sacramental act be set forth and handled; but let this suffice your Charity. You have heard a great mystery.

    Ask a man, Are you a Christian? His answer to you is, I am not, if he is a pagan or a Jєω. But if he says, I am; you inquire again of him, Are you a catechumen or a believer? If he reply, A catechumen; he has been anointed, but not yet washed.

    But how anointed? Inquire, and he will answer you. Inquire of him in whom he believes. In that very respect in which he is a catechumen he says, In Christ. See, I am speaking in a way both to the faithful and to catechumens. What have I said of the spittle and the clay? That the Word was made flesh. This even catechumens hear; but that to which they have been anointed is not all they need; let them hasten to the font if they are in search of enlightenment.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #16 on: September 19, 2020, 12:14:02 PM »
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  • The Mystical Body of Christ is the Body of the faithful.

    The faithful are His members who constitute the Church.

    The faithful are those who have been baptized with water and profess the true faith, and have not separated themselves from the Church.






    Mystici Corporis
    The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church
    Pope Pius XII - 1943

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm


    Quote
    11. After pondering all this long and seriously before God We consider it part of Our pastoral duty to explain to the entire flock of Christ through this Encyclical Letter the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ and of the union in this Body of the faithful with the divine Redeemer;

    Quote
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.


    Quote
    30.

    (. . .) it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been united to this Mystical Body through the waters of Baptism except by the salutary virtue of the Cross, by which they had been already brought under the complete sway of Christ.

    Quote
    59.

    (. . .)

    The Samaritans were right in proclaiming Him “Savior of the world”; for indeed He most certainly is to be called the “Savior of all men,” even though we must add with Paul: “especially of the faithful, since, before all others, He has purchased with His Blood His members who constitute the Church.



    Summo Iugiter Studio
    On Mixed Marriages
    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm



    Quote
    History of Dictum Against Mixed Marriages

    5. Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: “Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.” Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: “Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ.” Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: “There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.” Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses and that which other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #17 on: February 21, 2021, 08:53:47 PM »
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  • Adding portions that I missed.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687078/#msg687078




    St. Gregory nαzιanzen

    Oration 40

    The Oration on Holy Baptism.

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310240.htm


    Quote
    XVI.

    (. . .) despise not to be and to be called Faithful. As long as you are a Catechumen you are but in the porch of Religion; you must come inside, and cross the court, and observe the Holy Things, and look into the Holy of Holies, and be in company with the Trinity.

    Quote
    XXIII. And so also in those who fail to receive the Gift, some are altogether animal or bestial, according as they are either foolish or wicked; and this, I think, has to be added to their other sins, that they have no reverence at all for this Gift, but look upon it as a mere gift — to be acquiesced in if given them, and if not given them, then to be neglected. Others know and honour the Gift, but put it off; some through laziness, some through greediness. Others are not in a position to receive it, perhaps on account of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance through which they are prevented from receiving it, even if they wish.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #18 on: April 27, 2021, 10:54:51 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas:

    https://catholicism.org/doctrinalsummary.html


    Quote
    “But the unity of the Church exists primarily because of the unity of faith; for the Church is nothing else than the aggregate of the faithful. And because without faith it is impossible to please God, for this reason there is no room for salvation outside the Church. Now the salvation of the faithful is consummated through the sacraments of the Church, in which [sacraments] the power of the Passion of Christ is effective.” 38

    (. . .)


    38 St. Thomas Aquinas, Exposition Primae Decretalis ad Archdiaconum Tudertinum , edited by Fr. Raymond A. Verardo, O.P., Opusculum Theologica, Vol. I, Marietta, Turin, 1954, p. 425.



    Page 425 of Opusculum Theologica, Vol. I, is attached.

    See number 1182.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #19 on: April 27, 2021, 11:36:13 PM »
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  • The Catechetical instructions of Saint Thomas Aquinas, Translated by Rev. Joseph B. Collins, S.S., D.D., Ph.D. , published in 1939


    https://archive.org/details/catecheticalinst0000thom


    Page 51:


    Quote
    The Church is Catholic, that is, universal. Firstly, it is universal in place, because it is worldwide. This is contrary to the error of the Donatists. For the Church is a congregation of the faithful; and since the faithful are in every part of the world, so also is the Church: “Your faith is spoken of in the whole world.” And also: “Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.”


    Scan of page 51 attached.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #20 on: April 28, 2021, 06:29:13 AM »
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  • Mother Angelica



    At the video go to timestamp 48:20

    Mother Angelica Live
    ROAD TO EMMAUS

    5/16/2000




    Yes, this is the same thinking +Lefebvre expressed, that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means that everyone who is saved is saved BY the merits of Christ, whether they know it or not.  In other words, Karl Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity.  Rahner said that same thing.  In fact, he was criticized by the more radical Modernists for including the stipulation that they must be saved by and through Christ.

    THIS is THE heresy of our age.  I listen to people like Dr. David Anders on EWTN radio, and that guy is solidly Catholic on 95% of all his theology.  But then when EENS comes up or the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, he goes Protestant heretic.

    Traditional Catholics need to understand that this is THE theological error behind Vatican II and the V2 apostasy.

    JP2 was solid on MOST things ... except that he was one of the biggest promoters of religious indifferentism in history.

    If I were to be persuaded that non-Catholics could be saved, then I would make peace with the Novus Ordo, since then I'd believe the same things that all these people do.

    Here Mother Angelica goes so far as to claim that EENS is HERESY.  So they have reinterpreted EENS dogma to mean the exact opposite of what it says.  That totally destroys all dogma in the Church, and hands the victory to the Modernists, whose big idea was that the understanding of dogmas can change over time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #21 on: April 28, 2021, 06:34:59 AM »
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  • Monsignor Fenton wrote a paper where he admitted that the term "faithful" refers only to the baptized and positively excludes catechumens.

    So how then did he get around the dogmatic teaching that there's no salvation outside the Church OF THE FAITHFUL?

    He claims that one can be INSIDE the Church of the Faithful without being one of the FAITHFUL.

    I call this undigested hamburger ecclesiology.  Just as a hamburger enters the body but is not actually part of the body.  It's like a foreign substance in the body, a parasite that goes along for the ride to heaven.

    That's how ridiculous this has become.

    That is why the Church has to define EENS over and over again.  So now the Church will have to be more specific to condemn the Fentonian "interpretation" of No Salvation Outside the Church of the FAITHFUL.

    This particular dogmatic definition comes THE closest to rendering BoD, BoD in the sense of SALVATION (vs. justification) heretical.  On that other thread I started about "Ladislausian soteriology" I explained that St. Amborse, for instance, believed that there's a BoD of justification vs. salvation.  Even that article from St. Benedict Center and the Dimonds feel that St. Ambrose is contradicting himself.  He's not.  He's distinguishing between justification "washing" and salvation.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #22 on: April 28, 2021, 08:37:20 AM »
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  • Yes, this is the same thinking +Lefebvre expressed, that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means that everyone who is saved is saved BY the merits of Christ, whether they know it or not...

    THIS is THE heresy of our age.  I listen to people like Dr. David Anders on EWTN radio, and that guy is solidly Catholic on 95% of all his theology.  But then when EENS comes up or the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, he goes Protestant heretic.

    Traditional Catholics need to understand that this is THE theological error behind Vatican II and the V2 apostasy.

    JP2 was solid on MOST things ... except that he was one of the biggest promoters of religious indifferentism in history.

    Then there is this gem from the man I understand to be one of main heroes of what styles itself "the Resistance":

    https://novusordowatch.org/2015/07/bishop-williamson-novus-ordo-mass/

    https://inveritateblog.com/2015/07/29/christ-or-belial/

    I was not paying attention to anything within Traddieland for several years.  Why bother?  However, this absolutely Modernist BOMB from 2015 should have caused Bp. Williamson to get universally roasted.  Apparently, it did not.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #23 on: April 28, 2021, 08:54:08 AM »
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  • I got in trouble with Matthew in posting an article from Novus Ordo Watch. I hope you have more luck gladius.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #24 on: April 28, 2021, 09:26:00 AM »
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  • I got in trouble with Matthew in posting an article from Novus Ordo Watch. I hope you have more luck gladius.

    Thanks for the heads up, RC.  Taking down the article/video, chastising me, etc., cannot undo what was said by Bp. Williamson on this occasion -- yikes! -- and "handling" it in such a manner would be rather Facebook-ian, eh?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #25 on: April 28, 2021, 02:28:33 PM »
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  • Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
    I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #26 on: April 28, 2021, 05:21:18 PM »
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  • Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
     
    I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.

    Slipped?  You are FAR too kind.  It was an endlessly rambling catastrophe!

    Still, this thread has a different/separate topic.  I will address his Bıdɛn-esque debacle elsewhere.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #27 on: April 28, 2021, 10:05:19 PM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Church Militant (De Controversiis)


    Quote
    CHAPTER II: On the Definition of the Church

    (. . .)

    The Catholic teaching is that the Church is only one, not two, and that the body of men of the same Christian profession and of the same Sacraments gathered in communion is one and true, under the rule of legitimate pastors and especially of the one Vicar of Christ on Earth, the Roman Pontiff.

    From such a definition it can be clearly understood which men pertain to the Church and which do not.

    For there are three parts of this definition; the profession of the true faith, the communion of the Sacraments, and subjection to the legitimate pastor, the Roman Pontiff.

    By the reasoning of the first all infidels and those who have never entered the Church are excluded, such as Jєωs, Turks, and Pagans; then those who were in the Church but left, such as heretics and apostates. By the reasoning of the second part, all Catechumens and excommunicates are excluded, because they have not been admitted to the communion of the Sacraments, these are sent out; by reasoning of the third, all schismatics are excluded, that is those who have the faith and the Sacraments, but are not under the legitimate pastor, and therefore profess the faith and receive the Sacraments outside of the Church. Yet, all others, even the base, wicked and impious are included.

    This is the difference between our teaching and all others, that all others require external virtues to constitute someone in the Church, and for that reason they make the Church invisible; but even though we believe all virtues (e.g. faith, hope and charity and the rest), are discovered in the Church, still that someone could absolutely be called part of the true Church, on which the Scriptures speak, we do not think any internal virtue is required, but only the external profession of faith, as well as the communion of the Sacraments which is taken up in that sense. For the Church is a body of men that is just as visible and palpable as the body of the Roman people, or the Kingdom of France, or the Republic of Venice.



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #28 on: April 29, 2021, 12:51:35 AM »
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  • Actually the roasting has never stopped. I was there when +Williamson spoke to the woman who attended the NO Mass exclusively as she stated she had no other options.She was not familiar with tradition at all. No excuses, but I think he was addressing a level of incrementalism depending on where this particular woman was without turning her off completely. (I spoke to the woman afterwards and she was in tears anyway about what he said negatively about the new mass!).
    I think he was walking the tightrope and slipped. He probably should have spoken with her privately and not addressed this on video.

    Did you make up the term "incrementalism"? Is it anything else than Conciliar BS?
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: One Universal Church of the Faithful
    « Reply #29 on: April 29, 2021, 03:00:38 PM »
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  • I liked that part of the video where +W, just prior to when he told the woman that she could attend the NO, said:...."I know some will think that I'm committing trad heresy by saying this, but...." Or something very similar.

    What is refreshing about +W is that he doesn't take orders, when it comes to what he thinks, from laymen. He's his own person, and some are not happy with that. Oh well.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29