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Author Topic: One-on-one Discussion  (Read 3179 times)

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Offline BumphreyHogart

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One-on-one Discussion
« on: April 01, 2017, 12:58:46 PM »
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  • Merely a review for this OP, and my turn to reply, next...


    BUMPHREY:
    "God's existence can be known by reasoning, but this is not divine and supernatural faith. Faith is a free gift of God, and can be obtained before baptism by water. Nobody can be saved without the three divine virtues of faith, hope and charity at the time of death.  Divine faith must be explicit to some extent, the rest of the truths being implicit. The crux is what that minimum is. If you read my posts, you would see that I said the minimum theologically is not the same as the minimum required before a priest in a near death emergency can licitly perform the Sacrament of baptism. A further discussion would take it from there."



    AUGUSTINUS:
    "And from there, this is what I would note:
    The decision of the Holy Office is a theological decision regarding the minimum people need to know to be baptized.
    Now, in context, who are these people? Those ignorant of the faith, obviously.
    Therefore the decision is directly pertinent to the issue of ignorance.
    Now, the decision rendered, that people ignorant of the faith must by a Necessity of MEANS (in other words an absolute necessity, being bound up in faith which is of absolute necessity to salvation) confess Christ and the Trinity before baptism in danger of death is situationally NO different than those who die in any other circuмstance, including the pagan in the woods. WHY? Because there is only ONE difference to their circuмstance- the proximity of water and a minister for sacramental baptism.
    This is the whole point of implicit BoD- that a person, being bound as they are to the same necessity of means (Faith in Christ and the Trinity), can yet be dispensed from the Hypothetical necessity of means- water baptism- by the explicit profession of faith in Christ. The only difference is the proximity of the sacrament as an instrument:
    In one circuмstance a person who has a minister available will be baptized, in the other, the person who has no available minister will be interiorly sanctified.
    The point here being-
    that which is an absolute necessity of means (faith) and that which is predicated as necessarily connected with faith by a necessity of means (Christ and the Trinity) is not dispensable in any circuмstance whatsoever. Whether dying with or without baptism the same necessity of means is binding, specifically as a necessity of means."



    BUMPHREY:
    "A, please quote the theological decision you are referring to."



    AUGUSTINUS:
    "1349a Whether a minister is bound, before baptism is conferred on an adult, to explain to him all the mysteries of our faith, especially if he is at the point of death, because this might disturb his mind. Or, whether it is sufficient, if the one at the point of death will promise that when he recovers from the illness, he will take care to be instructed, so that he may put into practice what has been commanded him.

     Resp.A promise is not sufficient, but a missionary is bound to explain to an adult, even a dying one who is not entirely incapacitated, the mysteries of faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, as are especially the mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation.

    From Sources of Catholic Dogma-

    http://patristica.net/denzinger/
    That which is Necessary by a Necessity of means cannot be purely situational, or there would be cases when it is not necessary as a means- but faith is always necessary as a means, therefore those articles of faith are as well, as the Holy Office states."



    BUMPHREY:
    "Aug, do you realize that this quote says "especially", which implies that there are other mysteries of the faith not mentioned, that are a necessity of means?"



    AUGUSTINUS:
    "Don't get lost in the details of the articles of faith (that God exists and that he rewards the just and punishes the wicked).
    For now let's focus on the theology- Do you acknowledge the correctness of the perspective I propose- that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
    What applies to Baptism applies to Explicit BoD applies to Implicit BoD-
    all three circuмstances are subject to the same exact necessity of means- Supernatural faith in the articles of Catholic Faith especially the Trinity and Incarnation. And hope and charity with contrition, purpose of amendment and abandonment to the will of God."

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 01:44:03 PM »
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  • I must say, this is a good quote you have posted, but if one wishes to quote something, he wishes that it be comprehended.

    We presume he who translated was authorized and competent.

    The quote clearly states that there are mysteries of faith that need to be accepted which are necessary by a necessity of means, as are especially the two mentioned mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation. It is obvious from this quote that a missionary is bound to expound upon as much of the prominent mysteries of faith as he can, and obviously the starting point is the Trinity and the Incarnation before getting to the Redemption and Resurrection. 

    There is no trouble in communicating just what is intended, and were it true that only two were needed , it is not difficult to demand solely or only two, or say"at least", or at a minumum.

    It is also obvious from this quote that it is an answer to a question about what the obligation of the minister is in such a situation. He not only must explain these mysteries and more, but he must also discern that the penitent actually accepts these mysteries. It is also possible that a penitent may accept the Trinity and Incarnation and hesitate at the Crucifixion and Resurrection. This is why more mysteries actually are necessary by a necessity of means.

    Notice this question is posed directly related to the obligation of performing baptisms and deciding the requirements. Notice that apart from speaking of performing the SACRAMENT, what quotes elsewhere do we have that speak of what a soul must believe, at a minimum, dying without baptism by water? You see, the two prospects are quite different subjects.

    As well, a human being is VERY LIMITED in what he discerns in a penitent. A minister cannot look into the soul or the his will, but must be satisfied with what comes from the mouth.  On the other hand, God knows a soul and its will better than the soul knows itself. God would easily know whether there is a case that a penitent is not deserving of the Sacrament even if a man might feel he is...and vice versa. But man has to have some rules to go by that balance respect for the Sacrament, and care for the soul who is dying....and this is what the answer from the Holy Office gives.

    It's obvious, therefore, that what applies to Baptism does not also apply to baptism of desire.

    What does apply, however, is that Baptism is a necessity of means, and receiving it "in voto" satisfies that necessity.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 05:22:57 PM »
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  • This is where we need to be clear- Faith is an absolute necessity of means, it admits of no exceptions. So how can those articles of faith which share the same exact necessity of means admit of exceptions?


    We can say that the human minister is limited, but the invisible minister of Sanctifying Grace is the Holy Spirit who has perfect knowledge of the hearts of men. Therefore we ought to admit in consistency that he administers sanctifying grace perfectly to those who believe those articles necessary by a necessity of means, not only that, but he can and will enlighten their reason to clearly confess those articles if they are among the predestined, the elect.

    Remember, the object of baptism is the confederal of sanctifying grace.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 05:58:39 PM »
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  • This is where we need to be clear- Faith is an absolute necessity of means, it admits of no exceptions. So how can those articles of faith which share the same exact necessity of means admit of exceptions?


    We can say that the human minister is limited, but the invisible minister of Sanctifying Grace is the Holy Spirit who has perfect knowledge of the hearts of men. Therefore we ought to admit in consistency that he administers sanctifying grace perfectly to those who believe those articles necessary by a necessity of means, not only that, but he can and will enlighten their reason to clearly confess those articles if they are among the predestined, the elect.

    Remember, the object of baptism is the confederal of sanctifying grace.


    Yes, the object of baptism is the conferral of sanctifying grace.

    Baptism is a "necessity of means". Do you agree that baptism of desire satisfies the necessity of means by being "in voto".?

    Yes, supernatural, divine faith is an absolute "necessity of means", admitting of no exceptions. However, do you realize that "in voto" comes into play with faith like it comes into play with the sanctifying grace if baptism of desire?


    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 06:36:45 PM »
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  • Yes, the object of baptism is the conferral of sanctifying grace.

    Baptism is a "necessity of means". Do you agree that baptism of desire satisfies the necessity of means by being "in voto".?

    Yes, supernatural, divine faith is an absolute "necessity of means", admitting of no exceptions. However, do you realize that "in voto" comes into play with faith like it comes into play with the sanctifying grace if baptism of desire?
    No, I don't recognize that, and that is the difference between a Hypothetical Necessity of means and an Absolute Necessity of means.
    The exception you want to grant for baptism is appropriate because the KIND of Necessity it is is related to a created instrument: baptism. Therefore it's need is hypothetical: it is necessary because created it to be necessary, but as an instrumental cause. Now, God is not bound by his created instruments, therefore he can dispense with those things that are created means. Therefore their necessity is hypothetical.
    Another example of those things hypothetically necessary are the laws of physics. Ordinarily you live by eating food, but God provides miracles in two ways, either miraculously providing food or suspending the need for food. The need for food is hypothetically necessary by a necessity of means for physical survival.
    But he cannot dispense with faith, because faith is not a creature. God did not create faith, faith is a metaphysical necessity, therefore it is absolute and cannot exist in Voto. 
    An example is that the body must live through its unity with the soul. This is an absolute necessity by a necessity of means for which God does not make exceptions.
    And faith must be explicit in regard to its articles, the minimum required are four:
    That God has created the supernatural order.
    That he rewards the good and punishes the wicked.
    The Incarnation.
    The Trinity.
    For the above reasons are why there is no implicit faith in Voto.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)


    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 07:30:51 PM »
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  • This is another quote from Denzinger from the Holy Office which specifically denies the mitigation of articles of the faith which are necessary by a necessity of means:

    "1349b Whether it is possible for a crude and uneducated adult, as it might be with a barbarian, to be baptized, if there were given to him only an understanding of God and some of His attributes, especially His justice in rewarding and in punishing, according to this remark of the Apostle "He that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder'; [Heb . 11:23], from which it is inferred that a barbarian adult, in a certain case of urgent necessity, can be baptized although he does not believe explicitly in Jesus Christ.

    Resp. A missionary should not baptize one who does not believe explicitly in the Lord Jesus Christ, but is bound to instruct him about all those matters which are necessary, by a necessity of means, in accordance with the capacity of the one to be baptized."

    Even the barbaric simpleton has to admit these articles. Absolute Necessity of means is absolute.

    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 04:55:19 AM »
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  • I realize that I am going to have to step back and ask you a more foundational question to see where you are coming from on this subject.

    Do you believe there can be souls who were born and died after Pentecost, who are now in purgatory or heaven, who died with the three divine virtues, but were NOT physically baptized with water and do not have the character of baptism?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 06:48:34 AM »
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  • I realize that I am going to have to step back and ask you a more foundational question to see where you are coming from on this subject.

    Do you believe there can be souls who were born and died after Pentecost, who are now in purgatory or heaven, who died with the three divine virtues, but were NOT physically baptized with water and do not have the character of baptism?
    As far as I know yes. Not everyone in heaven had the character of baptism.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 07:41:35 AM »
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  • As far as I know yes. Not everyone in heaven had the character of baptism.

    Okay, so let me make sure I understand you. You believe that a catechumen who dies today, could go to purgatory (and later heaven) even though he was not baptized with water?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 10:25:11 AM »
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  • Okay, so let me make sure I understand you. You believe that a catechumen who dies today, could go to purgatory (and later heaven) even though he was not baptized with water?
    Provided all dispositions are in place, yes.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM »
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  • How do you consider the conclusion?
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 04:23:06 PM »
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  • I wanted to make sure we were discussing the right thing at the right time. So, it appears you accept BoD for catechumens, but not outside of that at all?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 05:26:08 PM »
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  • I wanted to make sure we were discussing the right thing at the right time. So, it appears you accept BoD for catechumens, but not outside of that at all?
    No I also accept an implicit BoD for those who have explicit faith in the minimum four articles required as a necessity of means-
    That God created a supernatural order
    That he rewards the just and punishes the wicked 
    The Incarnation
    The Trinity.
    BoD can be implicit for these. 
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 05:28:20 PM »
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  • No I also accept an implicit BoD for those who have explicit faith in the minimum four articles required as a necessity of means-
    That God created a supernatural order
    That he rewards the just and punishes the wicked
    The Incarnation
    The Trinity.
    BoD can be implicit for these.

    Did you mean to say BoD "cannot" be implicit for these?

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: One-on-one Discussion
    « Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 05:33:07 PM »
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  • Did you mean to say BoD "cannot" be implicit for these?
    BoD CAN be implicit for people who hold the minimum four articles of faith.
    You seem blown away? Lol.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)