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Author Topic: ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY  (Read 67924 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY
« Reply #930 on: October 07, 2014, 05:49:51 AM »
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  • It's obvious now that Kramer is a Pelagian heretic, having reduced faith to a necessity of precept.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #931 on: October 07, 2014, 06:54:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    It's obvious now that Kramer is a Pelagian heretic, having reduced faith to a necessity of precept.


    Yes, the whole batch of sacrament despisers are really incredible - I mean think about how they preach heaven, thanks to a BOD, has many non-Catholic saints - yet they scoff at the canonization of JP2 who certainly made the same implicit act of perfect contrition that infidels make just before he died.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #932 on: October 07, 2014, 07:59:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn


    The Salvation of Those Outside the Catholic Church
    by Rev. Fr. Noel Barbara
    Link



    This is precisely what CMRI sedevacantists such Ambrose (among all other modern pelagians defenders and promoters of "BOD", which in reality is not BOD proper at all) mean when they say they believe in "Outside the Church There is No Salvation". They redefine what is meant by the "Church" and what is meant by "outside" until there is nothing left of the original dogma.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #933 on: October 07, 2014, 08:10:31 AM »
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  • GJC,

    That is exactly the correct place for invincible ignorance as a way to separate the Elect from the Reprobate. No one that calls himself a "Thomist" can deny the fact that according to st. Thomas, the reprobate “seem to be preordained by God for the good of the elect, in whose regard all things work together unto good". Therefore, God wills to permit things to fail in their goodness, and thus evil to result, to manifest His goodness to the greatest extent possible.

    St.Thomas also teaches that when God withholds His grace is a punishment for sin, as ignorance of the Faith is a punishment as well, for "God is the cause of spiritual blindness, deafness of ear, and hardness of heart". He does this and permits some to fall only for the greater good of the Elect. God loves all men, but loves some more than others, because He creates more goodness in one sinner than in another. One sinner would not be better than another unless he were loved more and given more by God.






    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #934 on: October 07, 2014, 09:15:46 AM »
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  • Monsignor Fenton traced the history of those theologians who started to deny that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are ncessary for salvation by a necessity of means:

    Cano, Melchior
    1509-1560

    Suarez
    1548-1617

    Bonal
    1600-1653

    Salmanticenses
    1700’s

    Legrand, Louis
    1711-1780

    Marchini
    1800’s

    Liebermann, Bruno Franz Leopold
    1759-1844

    ...

    I'll leave out the rest.  As you can see, this starts up in the 16th century.  Prior to that it was believed always, everywhere, and by all that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation ... as professed in the Athanasian Creed.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #935 on: October 07, 2014, 09:22:44 AM »
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  • At the end of the day, NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN has EVER interpreted St. Thomas NOT to teach that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary by a necessity of means for salvation ... in the New Covenant.

    Basically, Kramer was rebuked not only by myself but even by Nishant, but his grave intellectual pride and stubborn bad will do not allow him to admit his mistake on the matter.  

    So Kramer has diabolically twisted this into making explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation into a necessity of precept only for the baptized.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    « Reply #936 on: October 07, 2014, 02:49:50 PM »
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  • Your replies, Ladislaus, are replete with premises that are intrinsically undermined by underlying fallacies. I will not go on forever pointing them out and refuting them. You quite obviously missed St. Thonas' conspicuous use of the word "precept" in his article in II - IIae on the need for explicit belief, which I quoted. He elaborates that point more fully in De Veritate, Q. 14.
       For any properly trained theologian from a pontifical university faculty, it is as plain as the light of day that St. Thomas teaches explicit necessity to profess the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Trinity, as of a necessity of precept. That is patently manifest in the text I quoted. St. Thomas explained the point even more completely in De Veritate, so there is not any possibility to misconstrue his meaning as you so crudely misconstrue it.
       You repeatedly reply by gratuitously stating that I don't know what I"m talking about; but it was not you, but I, who studied under Athanan De Vos OP, in the pontifical faculty in Rome, where he had been dean of Philosophy for 32 years (before Vatican II); and it was while studying under him in the Licentiate course, that I heard his illustrious lectures on De Veritate, and read through De Veritate in the Latin Leonine text.So, as a former seminary professor myself, I can only recommend that you read and reread St. Thomas until you finally can grasp the notions he is teaching. Up until now, you have shown yourself to be too obtuse and dull witted to grasp the subtlety of his distinctions and the complexity of his exposition.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #937 on: October 07, 2014, 02:51:02 PM »
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  • Take it up with Msgr. Fenton, Kramer; I trust his theological credentials over yours, thank you.  Have a nice day.


    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #938 on: October 08, 2014, 12:51:16 AM »
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  • Let's all please calm down and discuss this rationally, there's no need for polemics.

    Fr. Kramer, if you want 20th and 19th century theologians who hold and defend the teaching in question, I will give you two of the highest repute - Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, who singlehandedly oversaw innumerable conversions into the Church, (and good friend of Fr. Arnold Damen, who himself personally received 13,000 heretics into the Church), and who never published anything withtout the approval of two of his superiors, and Msgr. Fenton, who needs no introduction.

    1. Fr. Michael Mueller at the turn of the 19th century cites many authorities in its favor,

    Quote from: Fr. Mueller
    This doctrine is clearly expressed in the following words of the Athanasian Creed: "He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must thus think of the Trinity," that is, he must believe the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as explained in this Creed. "Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hence St. Peter says: "Be it known to you, that there is no salvation in any other name than that of Jesus Christ; for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved." (Acts, iv. 10, 10).

     "Thus," says St. Alphonsus, " there is no hope of salvation except in the merits of Jesus Christ. Hence St. Thomas and all theologians conclude that, since the promulgation of the Gospel, it is necessary, not only as a matter of precept, but also as a means of salvation (necessitate medii, without which no adult can be saved), to believe explicitly that we can be saved only through our Redeemer." (Reflections on the Passion of Jesus Christ, Chapt. I., No. 19).

    The explicit belief in the mysteries of the Holy Trinity and of the Incarnation of the Son of God is therefore of the greatest importance. This belief teaches the origin of the world, its creation by God the Father; it teaches us the supernatural end of man, his fall, and the redemption of mankind by God the Son; it teaches the sanctification of souls by the gifts of the Holy Ghost ...


    Likewise, Fr. Fenton in the 1950s tells us,

    Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
    ... most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation.


    Each of these theologians, like St. Alphonsus and others, cite many authorities in their works, and strenuously argue in favor of this teaching, which it is certainly their right and, as I will show below, arguably their duty, to do.

    2. From the Popes,

    Quote from: St. Pius X
    "A great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of Faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect."


    What is a mystery of Faith? A mystery of Faith is a truth to which natural reason cannot attain, it is the proper object of supernatural Faith, according to Vatican I.

    Quote from: Pius IX, First Vatican Council
    With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith. With regard to the object, besides those things to which natural reason can attain, there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known.


    There is a much earlier Holy Office decree, which was promulgated in the context of a missionary asking whether someone could be baptized with a promise to believe, but without actually believing the Faith. Rome's answer was that as the primary mysteries of the Faith like the Trinity and Incarnation are necessary as a means, therefore, a promise is not sufficient, but these must be explicitly confessed by all adults, even dying ones.

    Quote
    A promise is not sufficient, but a missionary is bound to explain to an adult, even a dying one who is not entirely incapacitated, the mysteries of Faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, as are especially the mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation.”


    Now, it doesn't seem that this can be reconciled with your opinion. If you wish to argue to the contrary, then give some explanation for these statements. In that St. Pius X in particular says "known", he rules out a mere implicit belief in these mysteries, and says it must be explicitly believed, or known.

    3. Fr. Kramer, you have yourself said you think Fr. Feeney was a good man, and I agree. Fr. Feeney did not know how to answer those who were saying Jews and Protestants can be saved without being Catholic, and so do not need to convert. So, he mad the mistake that he did. But let's leave Fr. Feeney for a moment. Today, over a billion nominal Catholics, and the leaders of the mainstream Church, no longer believe the Catholic Faith is a means without which salvation cannot be attained, they no longer tell Jews and Protestants, or anyone else for that matter, that they must be Catholic to be saved. Do you deny that false ecuмenism and interfaith horrors would not be possible if they did?

    Also, how can we credibly claim to be traditional Catholics if we positively refuse to believe something upheld by very great traditional authorities?

    This is consecrated Tradition, it is taught by the Church, Her Popes, Saints, Doctors, Fathers. It is taught by St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, St. Bernard and St. Robert, St. Augustine and St. Ambrose. It is contained in the Athanasian Creed, which is infallible, and taught by Popes down to Gregory XVI, Pius IX and St. Pius X, and, if you desire to hear it from them, other traditional Catholic theologians like Fr. Mueller and Msgr. Fenton before Vatican II.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    « Reply #939 on: October 08, 2014, 09:07:50 AM »
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  • No, Nishant, you quote Pius X and the theologians out of context: in Acerbo Nimis, St. Pius X speaks expressly of the ignorant baptized "Catholics" who culpably know nothing of the faith into which they were baptized. St. Thomas most clearly teaches that the necessity of precept & means to profess explicitly the Incarnation & the Trinity is for the faithful, i.e., the baptized; but not an absolute necessity of means, but a relative necessity of means for the unbaptized (invincibly ignorant) -- otherwise he contradicts himself when he teaches otherwise in De Veritate. Your interpretation not only makes St. Thomas a self contradicting teacher, but St. Pius X as well.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #940 on: October 08, 2014, 09:20:52 AM »
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  • Thank you, Nishant.  Great post.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #941 on: October 08, 2014, 09:27:46 AM »
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  • Let me expand the Vatican I citation by adding a sentence that comes just before it (with my emphasis).

    Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: Pius IX, First Vatican Council
    The perpetual agreement of the catholic church has maintained and maintains this too: that there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object.  With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith. With regard to the object, besides those things to which natural reason can attain, there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known.


    Supernatural faith is distinguished from natural knowledge BY VIRTUE OF ITS OBJECT, which Vatican I clearly defines as things that can ONLY be known by reason.  God's existence as a rewarder can be known through natural reason.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #942 on: October 08, 2014, 09:35:16 AM »
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  • At the end of the day, Vatican II is nothing other than the Church embracing this "minority opinion" and adding a merely pastoral presumption of good will vis-a-vis our attitudes toward the "separated brethren".

    If I believed in this "minority opinion" (aka heresy), then I would immediately accept Vatican II in substance, considering it merely to have been imprudent or inopportune given the climate of our day and the tendencies towards religious indifferentism.

    You see, the popes since the Renaissance saw a growing trend towards religious indfferentism, and often condemned it, but they failed to see the root cause error behind it all, this "minority opinion" or heresy.  THIS needed to have been stamped out in order to halt the tide of religious indifferentism, but they failed.  God of course allowed them to fail, because this is what has led to the sifting of faith in these end times.

    I am not content to call this minority opinion, per my other thread.  It's heresy.

    For nearly SIXTEEN HUNDRED YEARS it was believed always, everywhere, and by all that there could be no supernatural faith and no salvation without explicit faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.  That makes it a dogma of the ordinary universal magisterium.  If it doesn't, then I have absolutely no idea what ordinary universal magisterium is.  So let's stop sugar-coating this heresy by calling it minority opinion.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    « Reply #943 on: October 08, 2014, 09:39:55 AM »
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  • While St. Thomas explicitly refers to the "precept" that the ordinary faithful absolutely must explicitly believe in the principal revealed mysteries, which would appear to indicate that he considers that to be a necessity of means for them, but not for all; he clearly does not apply it unconditionally to all classes of men in the time of grace as an absolute necessity of means. Thus, as an absolute and universal necessity of means, St. Thonas quotes St. Paul: ""On the contrary, It is written (Hebrews11:6): 'He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a rewarder to them that seek Him'." -- and it is in this sense that Piys IX, X, and XII apply that apostolic teaching to the question of the salvation of the invincibly ignorant unbaptized adults who believe in God and are disposed to believe His revelation and obey Him. Although this doctrine is not solemnly defined, it is taught in the doctrinal encyclical Quanto Cunficiamur Maerore, and in the magisterium of St. Pius X and Pius XII; so one is morally bound to give it a religious assent of intellect and will; and one sins gravely (as does Ladislaus) who rejects it and impiously declares it to be a heresy.
        Ladislaus says I am a Pelagian for assenting to papal teaching; but he is too slippery, guileful, and cowardly to declare Bl. Pius IX, St. Pius X, and Ven. Pius XII heretics for teaching this "Pelagianism", as he calls it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #944 on: October 08, 2014, 10:51:32 AM »
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  • As with most Pelagian BoDers, you falsely claim support from Pius IX, St. Pius X, Pius XII.