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Author Topic: ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY  (Read 67129 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY
« Reply #915 on: October 06, 2014, 06:11:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Untrue, yet again.  You have been corrected on this point many times, but act as though you haven't.


    Liar.  You simply redefine all the terms.  What I wrote stands.


    Being called a liar by you is a compliment.

    I will stick with the Catholic Church of all ages. You can have your tiny 60 year old sect.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #916 on: October 06, 2014, 06:14:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Don Paolo
    And Cantarella has just made the same elementary blunder as Ladislaus.


    They keep blundering all of this because they refuse approved sources.  They love their private judgment and private authority, like all heretics before them.  A building built on sand will crumble.  

    Our Lord Jesus Christ taught, "He who hears you, hears me."
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #917 on: October 06, 2014, 07:06:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose


    I will stick with the Catholic Church of all ages. You can have your tiny 60 year old sect.



    The outside - the - Church CMRI cult was founded in 1967 and there is where this false "Catholic Church of all ages" is coming from in Ambrose's case.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #918 on: October 06, 2014, 07:37:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Don Paolo
    Clueless Ladislaus quotes a passage of St. Thomas THAT DOES NOT SPECIFY THAT WHICH THE MATUTO IN THE FOREST MUST EXPLICITLY PROFESS in support of his rigorist Feeneyite position that all without exception must explicitly profess the revealed mysteries of faith:


    You must be a genius, Kramer, since you're the only person who has ever thought that St. Thomas did not teach the necessity (by necessity of means) of explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and of the Incarnation for supernatural faith and for salvation.  But a special kind of genius for sure.

    No, Kramer, my point in reposting your own quote, with my emphasis, was to show that St. Thomas made in your own proof text a reference to the "what must be believed" which he then clearly expounds upon elsewhere; in other words, it absolutely does not prove your point.  In fact, you disagree with St. Alphonsus on the matter as well.

    You're a Pelagian heretic, as are Ambrose and LoT; Nishant is not.  You should read Nishant's postings to actually learn something about the Catholic understanding of "BoD".  If you took Nishant's position, then I would have not problem with you.  As it is, however, you are Pelagian Cushingite heretic.




    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #919 on: October 06, 2014, 07:41:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Being called a liar by you is a compliment.

    I will stick with the Catholic Church of all ages. You can have your tiny 60 year old sect.


    We've gone through this myriad times, Ambrose of Truth.  You pay lip service to the notion that only Catholics can be saved, but then you redefine Catholic in such a way that it can basically include any infidel whatsoever.

    You continue to lie by pretending that you "stick with the Catholic Church of all ages"; your saying that doesn't make you any less of a Pelagian heretic and a liar.  Every heretic like you claims to stick with the Church of all ages.  You hide behind BoD as cover for your Pelagian Cushingite heresy.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #920 on: October 06, 2014, 07:43:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    The Matuto in the forest has not the Catholic Faith.


    According to Kramer he does because Kramer has redefined "faith".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #921 on: October 06, 2014, 07:46:18 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, though, I suspect that Kramer has ulterior motives:

    1) wants to be consecrated a bishop by a trad group [someone needs to tell him that he needs to be a priest first]

    or

    2) wants to write a book to raise funds in order to reimburse people for years of Mass stipends he took only to invalidly simulate Mass


    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #922 on: October 06, 2014, 07:58:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ambrose


    I will stick with the Catholic Church of all ages. You can have your tiny 60 year old sect.



    The outside - the - Church CMRI cult was founded in 1967 and there is where this false "Catholic Church of all ages" is coming from in Ambrose's case.


    CMRI believes all teachings of the Church, including Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  

    Your sect rejects that page of the catechism.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #923 on: October 06, 2014, 08:02:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Being called a liar by you is a compliment.

    I will stick with the Catholic Church of all ages. You can have your tiny 60 year old sect.


    We've gone through this myriad times, Ambrose of Truth.  You pay lip service to the notion that only Catholics can be saved, but then you redefine Catholic in such a way that it can basically include any infidel whatsoever.

    You continue to lie by pretending that you "stick with the Catholic Church of all ages"; your saying that doesn't make you any less of a Pelagian heretic and a liar.  Every heretic like you claims to stick with the Church of all ages.  You hide behind BoD as cover for your Pelagian Cushingite heresy.



    Yes, we have gone through this before.  We are at an impasse.  You plan on remaining in heresy, I plan on remaining with the Catholic Church.  We each have made a choice.  

    I hope for your sake that when a Pope comes again, you will recant and confess your heresy.  Every day God gives you is one more chance to embrace the Catholic Faith again.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #924 on: October 06, 2014, 08:24:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose


    CMRI believes all teachings of the Church, including Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  

    Your sect rejects that page of the catechism.  



    The Salvation of Those Outside the Catholic Church
    by Rev. Fr. Noel Barbara
    Link

    This is the crap the CMRI believes in.

    Same thing Cushing, Schuckard and all the conciliar popes believe in and FYI, it is NOT a teaching of the Church.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #925 on: October 06, 2014, 09:08:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose


    CMRI believes all teachings of the Church, including Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  

    Your sect rejects that page of the catechism.  



    The Salvation of Those Outside the Catholic Church
    by Rev. Fr. Noel Barbara
    Link

    This is the crap the CMRI believes in.

    Same thing Cushing, Schuckard and all the conciliar popes believe in and FYI, it is NOT a teaching of the Church.




    At the end, this Modernist Cushing error is what Fr. Kramer is trying to defend, as well as everyone else that has any interest at all in defending BOD. No exception.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #926 on: October 07, 2014, 03:54:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose


    CMRI believes all teachings of the Church, including Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  

    Your sect rejects that page of the catechism.  



    The Salvation of Those Outside the Catholic Church
    by Rev. Fr. Noel Barbara
    Link

    This is the crap the CMRI believes in.

    Same thing Cushing, Schuckard and all the conciliar popes believe in and FYI, it is NOT a teaching of the Church.




    At the end, this Modernist Cushing error is what Fr. Kramer is trying to defend, as well as everyone else that has any interest at all in defending BOD. No exception.  


    Yes, the sacrament despisers, who abhor the thought of actually defending the necessity of the sacrament, believe Modernist Cardinal Cushing, to them he is the hero - so it is little wonder that they embrace his blatant heresy and conciliar teaching of salvation outside the Church as the above article by one of the Schuckardite priests demonstrates.

    They cannot accept the fact that prior to their hero Cushing arriving on the scene that the entire world knew that the Church taught that no one at all is saved outside the Church and without the sacrament of baptism.

    I hope and pray that they don't have to depend on the the Last Rites of Desire when it comes their turn.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Don Paolo

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    « Reply #927 on: October 07, 2014, 05:03:55 AM »
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  • Blind and CLUELESS  Ladislaus says: "You must be a genius, Kramer, since you're the only person who has ever thought that St. Thomas did not teach the necessity (by necessity of means) of explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and of the Incarnation for supernatural faith and for salvation.  But a special kind of genius for sure."

    St. Thomas teaches:

    II -IIae 1.5: Whether man is bound to believe anything explicitly:

    "On the contrary, It is written (Hebrews 11:6): "He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a rewarder to them that seek Him."

    I answer that, The precepts of the Law, which man is bound to fulfill, concern acts of virtue which are the means of attaining salvation. Now an act of virtue, as stated above (I-II, 60, 5) depends on the relation of the habit to its object. Again two things may be considered in the object of any virtue; namely, that which is the proper and direct object of that virtue, and that which is accidental and consequent to the object properly so called. Thus it belongs properly and directly to the object of fortitude, to face the dangers of death, and to charge at the foe with danger to oneself, for the sake of the common good: yet that, in a just war, a man be armed, or strike another with his sword, and so forth, is reduced to the object of fortitude, but indirectly.

    Accordingly, just as a virtuous act is required for the fulfilment of a precept, so is it necessary that the virtuous act should terminate in its proper and direct object: but, on the other hand, the fulfillment of the precept does not require that a virtuous act should terminate in those things which have an accidental or secondary relation to the proper and direct object of that virtue, except in certain places and at certain times. We must, therefore, say that the direct object of faith is that whereby man is made one of the Blessed, as stated above (Question 1, Article 8): while the indirect and secondary object comprises all things delivered by God to us in Holy Writ, for instance that Abraham had two sons, that David was the son of Jesse, and so forth.

    Therefore, as regards the primary points or articles of faith, man is bound to believe them, just as he is bound to have faith; but as to other points of faith,man is not bound to believe them explicitly, but only implicitly, or to be ready to believe them, in so far as he is prepared to believe whatever is contained in the Divine Scriptures. Then alone is he bound to believe such things explicitly, when it is clear to him that they are contained in the doctrine of faith."

    De Veritate Q. 14 a. 11:

    "Properly speaking, that is called implicit in which many things are contained as in one, and that is called explicit in which each of the things is considered in itself. These appellations are transferred from bodily to spiritual things. When a number of things are contained virtually in one thing, we say they are there implicitly, as, for instance, conclusions in principles. A thing is contained explicitly in another if it actually exists in it. Consequently, one who knows some general principles has implicit knowledge of all the particular conclusion. One, however, who actually considers the conclusions is said to know them explicitly. Hence, we are also said explicitly to believe certain things when we affirm those things about which we are actually thinking. We believe these same things implicitly when we affirm certain other things in which they are contained as in general principles. Thus, one who believes that the faith of the Church is true, implicitly in this believes the individual points which are included in the faith of the Church.

    We must note, accordingly, that there are some matters of faith which everyone is bound to believe explicitly in every age. Other matters of faith must be believed explicitly in every age but not by everyone. Still other matters everyone must believe explicitly, but not in every age. And, finally, there are things that need not be believed explicitly by everyone nor in every age."

    That which must be believed by everyone in every age:

    "That all the faithful in every age must believe something explicitly is evident from the fact that there is a parallel between the reception of faith with reference to our ultimate perfection and a pupil’s reception of those things which his master first teaches him, and through which he is guided to prior principles. However, he could not be so guided unless he actually considered something. Hence, the pupil must receive something for actual consideration; likewise, the faithful must explicitly believe something. And these are the two things which the Apostle tells us must be believed explicitly: “For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is the rewarder to them that love Him” (Hebrews 11:6). Therefore, everyone in every age is bound explicitly to believe that God exists and exercises providence over human affairs."

    Then St. Thomas elaborates on what must be explicitly professed by the faithful of different rank on different ages:

    "However, it is not possible for anyone in this life to know explicitly the whole of God’s knowledge, in which our beatitude consists. Yet it is possible for someone in this life to know all those things which are proposed to the human race in its present state as first principles with which to direct itself to its final end. Such a person is said to have faith which is completely explicit. But not all believers have this completeness; hence, there are levels of belief in the Church, so that some are placed over others to teach them in matters of faith. Consequently, not all are required explicitly to believe all matters of faith, but only those are so bound who are appointed teachers in matters of faith, such as superiors and those who have pastoral duties."
    "And even these are not bound to believe everything explicitly in every age.  For there is a gradual progress in faith for the whole human race just as there is for individual men. This is why Gregory says that down the ages there has been a growing development of divine knowledge.

    "Now, the fullness of time, which is the prime of life of the human race, is in the age of grace. So, in this age, the leaders are bound to believe all matters of faith explicitly. But, in earlier ages, the leaders were not bound to believe everything explicitly. However, more had to be believed explicitly after the age of the law and the prophets than before that time.

    "Accordingly, before sin came into the world, it was not necessary to believe explicitly the matters concerning the Redeemer, since there was then no need of the Redeemer. Nevertheless, this was implicit in their belief in divine providence, in so far as they believed that God would provide everything necessary for the salvation of those who love Him. Before and after the fall, the leaders in every age had to have explicit faith in the Trinity. Between the fall and the age of grace, however, the ordinary people did not have to have such explicit belief. Perhaps before the fall there was not such a distinction of persons that some had to be taught the faith by others. Likewise, between the fall and the age of grace, the leading men had to have explicit faith in the Redeemer, and the ordinary people only implicit faith. This was contained either in their belief in the faith of the patriarchs and prophets or in their belief in divine providence.

    "However, in the time of grace, everybody, the leaders and the ordinary people, have to have explicit faith in the Trinity and in the Redeemer. However, only the leaders, and not the ordinary people, are bound to believe explicitly all the matters of faith concerning the Trinity and the Redeemer. The ordinary people must, however, believe explicitly the general articles, such as that God is triune, that the Son of God was made flesh, died, and rose from the dead, and other like matters which the Church commemorates in her feasts."

         It is patent from the text presented here in its its full context that St. Thomas teaches that for faithful of the Church in the time of grace (i.e. the BAPTIZED), there is the necessity to profess explicitly the principal mysteries of faith; which he expressly qualifies in II -II Q. 2 a.5 as a NECESSITY OF PRECEPT. This precept clearly is not applicable to those not yet baptized and who labour under invincible ignorance; since St. Thomas expressly applies this necessity of precept to those who are already members of the Church.
       Therefore, it is also patent that St. Thomas did not apply that necessity of  precept to those who are not yet baptized and in invincible ignorance; but to the question of whether man is bound to believe anything explicitly, he states: "On the contrary, It is written (Hebrews 11:6): "He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a rewarder to them that seek Him."

    This teaching of St. Thomas is the basis of the above quoted teachings of Bl. Pius IX and St. Pius X, on the question of the salvation of the unbaptized invincibly ignorant. Ignorant (but not invincibly) Ladislaus says I have redefined faith, but I have made no innovation: I merely follow the teaching of St. Thomas, Bl. Pius IX, and St. Pius X. Ladislaus prefers to adhere to the rigorist doctrine of the heretic founder of his sect, Leonard Feeney SJ.








    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #928 on: October 07, 2014, 05:36:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Don Paolo
    Ladislaus prefers to adhere to the rigorist doctrine of the heretic founder of his sect, Leonard Feeney SJ.



    In your haste to reject the necessity of the sacrament, hence the Church for salvation, you missed your own error of embracing and promoting the error of Cushing.

    Quote from: James Carroll, who was there and has no dog in this fight

    What made Cushing's excommunication of Feeney astounding was that Feeney's line had been official Church teaching for most of a thousand years: No salvation outside the Church. Feeney confidently appealed to Rome, forcing the Vatican to take a position on the question. When the Vatican supported Cushing and upheld the excommunication of Feeney, the long-held doctrine of Catholic exclusivism was overturned.



    It's plain to see you have not done what I asked you to do - repeat the teaching of Trent: "The sacraments are a necessity unto salvation" 150000 times each day until you believe it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #929 on: October 07, 2014, 05:44:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Don Paolo
    It is patent from the text presented here in its its full context that St. Thomas teaches that for faithful of the Church in the time of grace (i.e. the BAPTIZED), there is the necessity to profess explicitly the principal mysteries of faith;


    I'm absolutely repulsed by your evil will, Kramer.  Get the behind me, Satan.

    "in time of grace" has nothing to do with Baptism but with the New Testament, thus St. Thomas' reference to not all things being necessary "in every age"; in other places St. Thomas says "after grace was revealed".  This has absolutely nothing to do with Baptism.

    The issue here, Kramer, is that in order to have SUPERNATURAL FAITH, there must be a supernatural object of faith, as taught by Vatican I.  Thus it's an obvious necessity of means.  Nor does this have to do with "profession"; these articles are sine qua non for supernatural faith.