Author Topic: ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY (Read 68411 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #840 on:** September 22, 2014, 06:14:01 AM »

In most cases, the catechism isn't even interpreting Trent; that wasn't its intent. It goes way beyond what Trent taught.

In addition, the alleged BoD passage in the catechism isn't even teaching BoD definitively. It's merely saying that in the case of adults it's OK to postpone Baptism for a while (vs. in the case of infants) because if the person's dispositions are good they will not be prevented by some accident from attaining to God's grace. In fact, it's the same language as used by St. Fulgentius, that their proper dispositions would "avail them to grace", a thought which St. Fulgentius completes by saying that God would bring such as these to Baptism.

Stubborn · « **Reply #841 on:** September 22, 2014, 07:58:39 AM »

Yes, actually the delay for adults is primarily to allow them to prepare to receive the sacrament, not that if they die in the meantime turns out they didn't really need it anyways.

The catechism, which according to Nishant, LoE, Ambrose, JAM and the rest is infallible by virtue of it being a teaching of the UOM.

Well, since that's what they choose to believe, then they have to change their promoting of the sacrament being necessary "in fact or in desire" (absurdity at it's finest) because it states right there in the catechism that the person receives a BOD without desiring the sacrament. Therefore, per the catechism, one achieves salvation without them or without the desire thereof.

This effectively achieves the goal of all a BODers everywhere by entirely removing any need for the sacrament and does so, according to them, infallibly.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #842 on:** October 03, 2014, 09:53:11 AM »

What the Feeneyite heretics refuse to grasp is that the in the Roman Catechism the Council Fathers of Trent themselves explain and interpret the doctrines on sacraments, justification and salvation expressly according to the mind of the Council of Trent. According to the Feeneyite sect, the Council Fathers of Trent, (and the popes Doctors, theologians and the vast majority of Catholics in general after them) did not correctly understand the doctrine they set forth in their own canons and decrees -- and therefore, the ecclesiastical magisterium misinterpreted the canons and decrees on Justification and the sacraments; until Feeney finally set them straight by interpreting Trent correctly -- and therefore (according to them) the true Catholic faith is professed only by the Feeneyite Sect; while all the post Tridentine popes, Doctors, theologians, magisterium and the vast majority of Catholics in general fell into heresy and defected from the Church.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #843 on:** October 03, 2014, 09:56:59 AM »

What the Feeneyite heretics refuse to grasp is that in the Roman Catechism the Council Fathers of Trent themselves explain and interpret the doctrines on sacraments, justification and salvation expressly according to the mind of the Council of Trent. According to the Feeneyite sect, the Council Fathers of Trent, (and the popes Doctors, theologians and the vast majority of Catholics in general after them) did not correctly understand the doctrine they set forth in their own canons and decrees -- and therefore, the ecclesiastical magisterium misinterpreted the canons and decrees on Justification and the sacraments; until Feeney finally set them straight by interpreting Trent correctly -- and therefore (according to them) the true Catholic faith is professed only by the Feeneyite Sect; while all the post Tridentine popes, Doctors, theologians, magisterium and the vast majority of Catholics in general fell into heresy and defected from the Church.

Stubborn · « **Reply #844 on:** October 03, 2014, 10:25:27 AM »

Didn't read the post before yours?

"Without them or without the desire thereof" means the sacrament is not necessary in fact or desire according to what you consider to be the infallible catechism.

So stop arguing and renew your heresy, since according to your catechism, you've been in error teaching that infidels needed to actually desire the sacrament.

Now you have all the ammunition you need to proclaim no one really needs the sacrament at all, just as you've been saying.

Cantarella · « **Reply #845 on:** October 03, 2014, 11:07:45 AM »

Man was created in the Image and Likeness of God and ever since then man tries to re-create God in his own image and likeness, always questioning God's ways, trying to make little gods of themselves.

Why is it that is so hard to accept the Divine Revelation as it is? without loopholes.

Christ Our Lord instituted only ONE baptism (that, of water) for the remission of sin, original and actual, and the incorporation into the True Church, the body of Christ. Absolutely NOTHING is missing from the Law of Salvation He established through the exclusive means of the ONLY Church He created.

If a person in a false religion can be saved, then everything that Lord Jesus did, taught, and died for, makes absolutely no sense. These words then are meaningless: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Don Paolo · « **Reply #846 on:** October 04, 2014, 06:48:00 AM »

In the Roman Catechism, Pope St. Pius V promulgated the Tridentine Council Fathers' own interpretation and explication of the teaching of the Council of Trent on the necessity of Baptism for salvation; which teaches that infants must be baptized immediately, because they have NO OTHER WAY TO BE SAVED; but for adults, Baptism must be deferred; since they do not have the danger of death that threatens infants. And in case of an unforseen danger of death, they can receive the grace and justification of Baptism through repentance and the resolve to receive Baptism. Thus, the doctrine of Baptism in voto, taught in the Decree on Justification and in Sess. 7 can. 4, is expressly taught and understood by the Council Fathers of Trent as a MEANS OF SALVATION for those cases in which the reception of baptismal water is impossible:

The text of the Roman Catechism in the precision and clarity of the original language:

" Ma nessun insegnamento è più necessario di questo: che la legge del Battesimo è prescritta dal Signore per tutti gli uomini i quali, se non rinascono a Dio con la grazia del Battesimo, son procreati dai loro genitori, siano questi fedeli o no, per la miseria e la morte eterna. Molto spesso i pastori dovranno commentare la sentenza evangelica: 'Chi non rinascer‚ per acqua e Spirito Santo non può entrare nel regno di Dio' (Gv 3,5)." ...

" Perciò i pastori insegneranno che i bambini devono assolutamente essere battezzati." ...

" Si pensi che ai piccoli non è lasciata alcuna possibilità di guadagnare la salvezza, se non è loro impartito il Battesimo." ...

" 178 Diverso metodo deve seguirsi, secondo l'antico uso ecclesiastico, a proposito di adulti che, nati da infedeli, hanno raggiunto il pieno uso della ragione. A essi deve essere proposta la fede cristiana e con ogni cura devono essere esortati, spinti e condotti ad accoglierla. Convertiti a Dio, dovranno poi essere ammoniti a non differire il sacramento del Battesimo oltre il tempo fissato dalla Chiesa."

" Nonostante ciò fu consuetudine della Chieda di non concedere subito a questa classe di individui il sacramento del Battesimo; si stabilì al contrario di ritardarlo per un certo tempo. Per essi del resto la dilazione non implica il pericolo che incombe per i bambini.
In caso improvviso di pericolo, chi ha l'uso della ragione, pur impossibilitato a purificarsi nell'acqua sacramentale, può conseguire la grazia e la giustizia col semplice proposito di ricevere a suo tempo il Battesimo, unito al pentimento dei peccati commessi."

And in English:

"But no teaching is more necessary than this one: that the law of Baptism is prescribed by the Lord for all men who, if are not reborn to God with the grace of Baptism, are procreated by their parents, whether they be faithful or not, for misery and eternal death. Very often the pastors will have to mention the evangelical pronouncement: "He who is not reborn by water and the Holy Ghost cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) ...

Therefore the pastors shall teach that infants must absolutely be baptized." ...

" One must consider that for infants there is provided no other possibility to gain salvation, if they are not given Baptism." ...

" A different method must be followed for adults according to the ancient custom of the Church, who, born as infidels, have reached the full use of reason. To them the Christian faith must be set forth and with all dilligence they must be exhorted, prompted and led to embrace it."

" Notwithstanding that was the custom of the Church to not immediately give the sacrament of Baptism to this class of individuals; the contrary was established to delay it for a certain time. For them, on the other hand, there is not the danger that threatens infants. In the case of unforseen danger [of death] one who has the use of reason, due to the impossibility to be purified in baptismal water, can receive grace and justification with the simple resolve to receive Baptism in its due time, together with repentance for sins committed."

We have ABSOLUTE CERTITUDE that the Roman Catechism correctly explains the doctrine of the Council of Trent on Baptism, justification & salvation; because it was COMPILED AND PROMULGATED BY TRENT COUNCIL FATHERS.

The teaching is infallible: it is the unanimous teaching of the Council of Trent explained by the Fathers of Trent; and it is the unanimous and explicit teaching of the universal and ordinary magisterium for more than four centuries. Catholics are not free to accept only solemn infallible pronouncements of the extraordinary magisterium, but must assent with divine and Catholic faith to the definitive teachings of the universal magisterium under penalty of heresy (can. 751) Therefore, dear Feeneyites: Do you profess these doctrines which have been declared to be without error; and taught expressly as pertaining to the universal magisterium by Pope Clement XIII? Yes or No? If you say "NO" you excommunicate yourselves and place yourselves outside the Church, where there is no salvation.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #847 on:** October 04, 2014, 07:00:20 AM »

Ha Ha Ha! Heretic priest? I'm a heretic (according to Ladislaus) because I profess the doctrine of the Council Fathers of Trent, the post Tridentine Doctors and Popes !!! Stupid Feeneyite ass Ladislaus says I deny EENS by professing BOB & BOD!
According to the Ferneyite heresy, those who repent and resolve to receive Baptism, and thereby receive justification are still outside the Church. The proposition is heretical: Since the Third Century, it has been explicitly professed by the Church that those who were justified by the votum to receive Baptism, but were martyred before they could be baptized are saints of the Church Triumphant. The perpetual teaching of the Church upholds both Baptism in voto and EENS. It is the heretical novelty of Feeney to see a contradiction between the two. That is why the stupid ass asserts that I deny EENS! According to his heresy there is a contradiction between BOB/BOD and EENS; but according to the constant teaching of the magisterium there is none. Justification produces sanctification. There is no sanctifying grace outside the Church. Feeney's heresy was to believe that those justified and sanctified by Baptism in voto without baptismal water remain outside the Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #848 on:** October 04, 2014, 07:44:52 AM »

Quote from: Don Paolo

Ha Ha Ha! Heretic priest? I'm a heretic (according to Ladislaus) because I profess the doctrine of the Council Fathers of Trent, the post Tridentine Doctors and Popes !!! Stupid Feeneyite ass Ladislaus says I deny EENS by professing BOB & BOD!

No, I am the first one to say that BoD and BoB are NOT heretical. I have denounced the Dimond brothers as schismatic for holding that position. My problem is that a large number of your explanations and articulations of BoD and BoB have been Pelagian, i.e. heretical. If you want to hold BoD/BoB in a non-Pelagian manner, then I am no one to contest your opinion except for by way of friendly disagreement.

Problem with BoD/BoB is precisely that for every single person who says he believes in it, you get a different explanation of what it is, what it's scope is, what it can and cannot supply for, etc. That's just another reason why it cannot be dogma; dogmas need to be clearly defined.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #849 on:** October 04, 2014, 07:56:45 AM »

The Council Fathers of Trent explain explicitly in what manner the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, stating in the Roman Catechism that the grace of Baptism, (but not always the water), is absolutely necessary for salvation. The absolute necessity of Baptism is therefore an absolute necessity of means in respect to the res sacramenti, which is the immediate instrumental cause of justification and sanctification. The visible sign of the washing of baptismal water is NOT of an absolute necessity of means, but of a relative necessity; because if it were of absolute necessity, then the Council of Trent would have defined erroneously that justification is effected by the sacrament or by the votum of it.
The res sacramenti is of absolute necessity of means for justification and salvation, because it consists in the divine and supernatural operation on the soul, by which man is cleansed from sin and sanctified by grace:

“Gratia baptismalis, cuм sit quaedem generatio, duos terminos importat: terminum a quo seu corruptionem prioris formae et terminum ad quem seu productionem novae formae vitalis.

Ex parte termini a quo gratia baptismalis est totalis remissio peccati originalis, seu ipsius peccati orignis, peccati actualis tum mortalis tum venialis, poenae aeternae ac totius poenae temporalis pro peccatis debitae, omnis poenalitatis.

Ex parte termini ad quem gratia baptismalis est perfect restitutio justitiae originalis, i.e. gratiae sanctificantis et doni integritatis.* Haec tamen restitutio quae vi Baptismi perficietur in coelo, nunc immediate post susceptionem Baptismi est tantum incompleta; consistit autem in gratia communi sanctificante, per quam restituitur substantia justitiae originalis, et in gratia sacramentali (strictius dicta) quae est quidam modus vel vigor gratiae sanctificanti additus, qui eam specialiter ordinat ad omnes effectus et proprietates quae ad generationem referuntur et virtute cujus, incipienter in hac vita per virtutum exercitium ac perfecte in altera vita per purificationem purgatorii et retirbutionem gloriae, restituitur donum illud integritatis quo justitia originalis perficiebatur.” (Doronzo, De Baptismo et Confirmatione, Bruce publishing 1947, pg. 86)

The dogma is clear: What is necessary for salvation are the sacraments in re or in voto (Sess. 7 can. 4). The first clause of the canon defines the necessity of the sacraments for salvation; and the subordinate clause defines in what manner they are necesssary: in re or in voto, because there cannot be justification without them or the votum of them.
The doctrine of Trent is explicitly set forth and magisterially interpreted in the Roman Catechism by the Council Fathers themselves: Baptism in voto as a means of salvation for whom water baptism is impossible. The Feeneyites reply by claiming that they understand the dogma as it is written; and heretically assert that dogma is absolutely clear in its meaning, and has absolutely no need to be interpreted. I have already quoted earlier the verbatim text of the dogmatic constitution of Vatican I, "Dei Filius", which teaches that the magisterium of Holy Mother Church alone possesses the authority to interpret dogma. Yet the Feeneyites obstinately persist in their heresy, saying, "There is only one interpretation of dogma ... what the dogma says." This is nothing but heretical Feeneyite Voodoo theology: Chapter 2 of the Dogmatic Constitution "Dei Filius" explicitly defines that the magisterium of the Church alone possesses the authotity to interpret dogma; and further explains that the Tridentine pronouncement on the unanimous consent of the Fathers was misinterpreted by many, and therefore the dogma of Trent is now authentically interpreted in Dei Filius of Vatican Council I. Thus, the adherents of the Feeneyite cult heretically deny the magisterial authority to interpret the dogmas, so that they can justify their heretical understanding of the dogmas in a manner that opposes the understanding of them according to the mind of Holy Mother Church.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #850 on:** October 04, 2014, 08:00:23 AM »

You are lying again, Ladislaus: When I professed BOB, you stated that I deny the dogma of EENS. Thus, you manifested patently your Feeneyite heresy.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #851 on:** October 04, 2014, 08:02:16 AM »

There is no perennial TEACHING about BoD. BoD is a speculative opinion that has become widely adopted based on the reverence people have for St. Thomas, who himself adopted it due to reverence for St. Augustine. One of the Innocents admitted that his opinion was based on the authority of St. Augustine (was not teaching it of his own papal authority).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #852 on:** October 04, 2014, 08:04:02 AM »

Quote from: Don Paolo

You are lying again, Ladislaus: When I professed BOB, you stated that I deny the dogma of EENS. Thus, you manifested patently your Feeneyite heresy.

Nope, it was for the way in which you applied BoD to those outside the Church, not for BoD per se. You fail to make simple distinctions.

Cantarella · « **Reply #853 on:** October 04, 2014, 11:14:44 AM »

There is only one way to believe dogma: as Holy Mother Church has declared it. The EENS dogma has been thrice infallibly declared.

Quote

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess.3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, Ex-Cathedra Dogma >>>: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding."

This doctrine made in First Vatican Council is vitally important for dogmatic purity, because the primary way that Satan attempts to corrupt Christ’s doctrines is by getting men to move away from the Church’s dogmas as they were once declared. There is no meaning of a dogma other than what the words themselves state and declare, so the Devil tries to get men to “understand” and “interpret” these words in a way that is different from how the Church has declared them.

Outside the Church There is No Salvation: There is no need to add anything to it or "understand” the dogmas in a different way than what the words themselves state and declare.

Quote

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:

“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:

“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence, which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned

Dogmas of the faith, like Outside the Church There is No Salvation, are truths fallen from heaven which cannot be contradicted and must be believed by all faithful.

However, this is not pertaining to BOD since BOD is NOT and never has been a dogma.

Any one who says that we must interpret or understand the meaning of a dogmatic definition, in a way which contradicts its actual wording, is denying the whole point of Infallibility and dogmatic definitions. Also, those who insist that infallible DEFINITIONS must be interpreted by non-infallible statements (e.g., from theologians, catechisms, etc.) are denying the whole purpose of the Chair of Peter. They are subordinating the Heavenly dogmatic teaching to the re-evaluation of fallible humans thereby inverting their authority.

Don Paolo · « **Reply #854 on:** October 04, 2014, 12:19:49 PM »

Gratuitous Crap:

"There is no perennial TEACHING about BoD. BoD is a speculative opinion that has become widely adopted based on the reverence people have for St. Thomas, who himself adopted it due to reverence for St. Augustine. One of the Innocents admitted that his opinion was based on the authority of St. Augustine (was not teaching it of his own papal authority)."

No, Ladislaus, it is the constant and explicit teaching of the post Tridentine ordinary magisterium. It is de fide divina et Catholica.