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Author Topic: ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY  (Read 57836 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2014, 08:40:54 AM »
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  • Yes, we can number about five or six Church Fathers among the "heretics" who would deny Baptism of Desire.

    Interestingly, only ONE actually accepted it, temporarily, and he later changed his mind and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  (St. Augustine)


    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #16 on: June 09, 2014, 04:10:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Yes, we can number about five or six Church Fathers among the "heretics" who would deny Baptism of Desire.

    Interestingly, only ONE actually accepted it, temporarily, and he later changed his mind and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  (St. Augustine)


    The Church fathers were not heretics, as the teaching of Baptism of Desire was not then binding.  As the teaching developed and then was taught by the Universal Ordinary Magisterium, and by the Extraordinary Magisterium at the Council of Trent, it became obligatory to believe it.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #17 on: June 09, 2014, 04:12:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    ON THE FEENEYITE HERESY
    « Reply #18 on: June 09, 2014, 08:16:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!


    If he held his view today, would you consider it heretical..if no why not?

    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #19 on: June 09, 2014, 08:39:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!


    If he held his view today, would you consider it heretical..if no why not?


    Saints conform themselves to the teaching of the magisterium.  All saints since the Middle Ages all held Baptism of Desire.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #20 on: June 09, 2014, 08:46:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!


    If he held his view today, would you consider it heretical..if no why not?


    Saints conform themselves to the teaching of the magisterium.  All saints since the Middle Ages all held Baptism of Desire.  

    so I assume you would say St John Chrysostom would have had to change his particular view here and conform ...correct?

    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #21 on: June 09, 2014, 08:49:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!


    If he held his view today, would you consider it heretical..if no why not?


    Saints conform themselves to the teaching of the magisterium.  All saints since the Middle Ages all held Baptism of Desire.  

    so I assume you would say St John Chrysostom would have had to change his particular view here and conform ...correct?


    If Saint John Chrysostom were alive today, he would hold the same as St. Alphonsus, another Doctor of the Church.

    Saints conform their mind to the Magisterium, they never oppose it.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #22 on: June 14, 2014, 12:31:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Kramer is merely witnessing to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church which has taught Baptism of Desire.  It is de fide.  Those who deny it are professing heresy.


    Yes, yes Ambrose, we know you have this obsession against the sacraments and their necessity for salvation and we know you share this detestation of them with Fr. Kramer, Cardinal Cushing and all the Conciliar popes - we know this because you have  started dozens of threads against the necessity of the sacraments and championed the cause against them.

    Does it not strike you as at least a bit odd, that you, who foolishly adhere to your "Salvation via No Sacrament At All" error and the fact that you cannot bring yourself to defend the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, are somehow related to each other?  

    Do you really think that posting yet another thread denying the necessity of the sacraments for salvation helps you defend the necessity of the sacraments? Or does it not make more sense that the reason you cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments is because you repeat over and over and over and over again that they are not necessary?

    +6 months and counting, still seeking an honest NSAAer - which you, verifiably, are not.

    Will an honest NSAAer please step up and publicly admit that the sacraments are optional, that they are not necessary for salvation please?


    I have very little hope that you will recant from this heresy, my goal now is to stop it from spreading further.  

    To deny Baptism of Desire is heresy.  You should be living in fear for your eternal salvation.  Catholics are not allowed to believe heresy.  Heresy will sever you from the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.


    Is St John Chrysostom, a heretic?

    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3: “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the
    Faithful... One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of
    one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes... Since then we
    have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?... Let us
    then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above... for if it
    should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of
    death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our
    portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire
    unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    No!


    If he held his view today, would you consider it heretical..if no why not?


    Saints conform themselves to the teaching of the magisterium.  All saints since the Middle Ages all held Baptism of Desire.  

    so I assume you would say St John Chrysostom would have had to change his particular view here and conform ...correct?


    If Saint John Chrysostom were alive today, he would hold the same as St. Alphonsus, another Doctor of the Church.

    Saints conform their mind to the Magisterium, they never oppose it.


    can you tell me approximately what year would   St John Chrysostom of had to change his mind and conform to the magisterium with regards to  baptism of desire


    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #23 on: June 14, 2014, 06:53:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    can you tell me approximately what year would   St John Chrysostom of had to change his mind and conform to the magisterium with regards to  baptism of desire


    Certainly, it would be no later than the medieval Papal pronouncements of Innocent II and III (see Denz 388 and 413, the latter of whom also made a famous pronouncement on EENS, showing that BOD and EENS are complementary and not contradictory) in the 12th and 13th centuries. When the heretical Peter Abelard (who admitted baptism of blood, but tried to contest baptism of desire) publicly made his erroneous statements, he was corrected by St. Bernard and St. Bonaventure, who showed how baptism of desire derives from baptism of blood, with proofs of both from Scripture and Tradition. St. Robert, St. Alphonsus and other later Doctors cite these medieval Papal pronouncements as well.

    By the Middle Ages, the doctrine of Baptism of desire was universally taught as settled and certain in all Catholic schools. Since that time, all Saints and Doctors are unanimous in declaring that the Church has definitively taught that souls have also been saved by baptism of desire and blood.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #24 on: June 14, 2014, 10:52:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: gooch
    can you tell me approximately what year would   St John Chrysostom of had to change his mind and conform to the magisterium with regards to  baptism of desire


    Certainly, it would be no later than the medieval Papal pronouncements of Innocent II and III (see Denz 388 and 413, the latter of whom also made a famous pronouncement on EENS, showing that BOD and EENS are complementary and not contradictory) in the 12th and 13th centuries. When the heretical Peter Abelard (who admitted baptism of blood, but tried to contest baptism of desire) publicly made his erroneous statements, he was corrected by St. Bernard and St. Bonaventure, who showed how baptism of desire derives from baptism of blood, with proofs of both from Scripture and Tradition. St. Robert, St. Alphonsus and other later Doctors cite these medieval Papal pronouncements as well.

    By the Middle Ages, the doctrine of Baptism of desire was universally taught as settled and certain in all Catholic schools. Since that time, all Saints and Doctors are unanimous in declaring that the Church has definitively taught that souls have also been saved by baptism of desire and blood.


    Good post Nishant.

    I may also add, in addition to Nishant's excellent answer that Baptism of Desire was a certain doctrine for many centuries prior to Trent, but, as it was taught by the Council, the note would have changed to de fide.

    This is why St. Alphonsus assigns the note of de fide to Baptism of Desire, because it was taught directly by the Council of Trent.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #25 on: June 14, 2014, 11:47:49 AM »
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  • Baptism of Desire is not de fide and certainly the Council of Trent did not teach it. The theories of Baptism by blood or desire are just that: theories. Even though some Saints and tehologians have believed in them does not alter the fact that they have not been defined infallibly. We can discuss these speculations, we can study them with great care but we cannot make them infallible, and, so, we cannot teach them as fact. Only Baptism by water and the Holy Ghost is a true Sacrament, infallibly defined.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #26 on: June 14, 2014, 03:26:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptism of Desire is not de fide and certainly the Council of Trent did not teach it. The theories of Baptism by blood or desire are just that: theories. Even though some Saints and tehologians have believed in them does not alter the fact that they have not been defined infallibly. We can discuss these speculations, we can study them with great care but we cannot make them infallible, and, so, we cannot teach them as fact. Only Baptism by water and the Holy Ghost is a true Sacrament, infallibly defined.


    You keep saying that, but you are wrong.  Baptism of Desire was clearly and explicitly taught by the Council of Trent.  Your denial does not make it true.

    Are you aware that Doctors of the Church and countless dogmatic theologians with an immeasurably better understanding of theology than you all knew and taught that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

    Why don't you just realize your place and learn from your betters?  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #27 on: June 14, 2014, 05:06:27 PM »
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  •  :facepalm:.....Truly the Never ending story..it goes on and on.........

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #28 on: June 14, 2014, 06:11:01 PM »
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  • Never BOD has been de fide. The Church does and has accepted the THEORY of BOD for catechumens only, therefore a person is NOT a heretic if he/she wants to believe in it. The Church allows for freedom in this respect. Again, this teaching (which NOT de fide) is for sincere CATECHUMENS ONLY. Not for the invincible ignorant or any person not prone to mass murder, as the modernists want us to believe.

    There is not a single dogmatic statement ever to be found on the efficacy BOD. However, On three occasions three Popes have defined infallibly EXCATHEDRA that outside the Church there is no salvation whatsoever, nor is there salvation for anyone who is not subject to the Roman Pontiff, nor will Jєωs (indeed any unbaptized individual), heretics or schismatics enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless before their death they are received into the bosom of the Catholic Church.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline drew

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    « Reply #29 on: June 14, 2014, 06:26:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Baptism of Desire is not de fide and certainly the Council of Trent did not teach it. The theories of Baptism by blood or desire are just that: theories. Even though some Saints and tehologians have believed in them does not alter the fact that they have not been defined infallibly. We can discuss these speculations, we can study them with great care but we cannot make them infallible, and, so, we cannot teach them as fact. Only Baptism by water and the Holy Ghost is a true Sacrament, infallibly defined.


    You keep saying that, but you are wrong.  Baptism of Desire was clearly and explicitly taught by the Council of Trent.  Your denial does not make it true.

    Are you aware that Doctors of the Church and countless dogmatic theologians with an immeasurably better understanding of theology than you all knew and taught that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

    Why don't you just realize your place and learn from your betters?  



    Ambrose:

    You are correct that "Baptism of Desire" was taught at Trent but certainly not in the sense that you and  Fr. Kramer understand it.  Trent taught that the "votum," to receive the sacrament, which is necessarily explicit because a "votum" requires a known object, can produce a state of justification.  But in the dogmatic infallible canons, the formal objects of divine and Catholic faith, Trent defined that the sacraments are necessary for salvation as a necessity of means.  The word "sacrament" in the canon is the form and matter by definition.  

    Fr. Kramer follows St. Alphonsus' mistaken understanding that Trent taught "Baptism of Desire" de fide.  In this St. Alphonsus erred and the source of his error is easy to see.  In his book on Moral Theology, he references Trent as the authority on "Baptism of Desire" by quoting from the Decree on Justification.  He then misquotes the Decree when he said, "no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" The Decree on Justification from Trent says, "This translation (to a state of justification) however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it." St. Alphonsus takes only part of the sentence and then inserts the word, "saved" while the Decree is referring to "justification." The difference is between being "saved" and being "regenerated" (justified).  All who are saved are justified, but not all those who are justified are saved.  By failing to make a theological distinction between salvation and justification the actual teaching of Trent is, in fact, corrupted.  The evidence offered by St. Alphonsus for his claim that the doctrine of "Baptism of Desire" is de fide is a misquotation.

    Canon 4 on the sacraments contains two categorical propositions that are infallibly defined as formal objects of divine and Catholic faith.  This canon distinguishes between justification and salvation.  It explicitly state that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that they are necessary in re or in votum for justification.


    Quote from: Canon 4, On the Sacraments
    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.



    Fr. Kramer believes in a doctrine that I call "salvation by justification alone."  By this I mean that he holds that no external sign of justification, such as the sacraments, are necessary for salvation.  He takes this doctrine from the Decree of Justification from Trent by extracting a single sentence from the last paragraph which he takes entirely out of the context of the narrative.  The sentence  is even out of the context of the very paragraph in which it is found.  He then proceeds to apply his doctrine of "salvation by justification alone" to re-interpret the dogmatic canons of Trent.  When Fr. Kramer is done re-interpreting the canons from Trent they have a completely different meaning than what they literally say.  If you are interested, I will explain in detail exactly how Fr. Kramer corrupts this particular canon.

    It is really unfortunate to see a priest like Fr. Kramer corrupt a dogmatic canon.  In his book, The Devils Final Battle, Fr. Kramer gives an excellent exposition on dogma and its nature that is one of the best.  His book, The ѕυιcιdє in Altering the Faith in the Liturgy, is entirely built upon the dogmatic canons that pertain to the liturgy. In his accusation against Fr. Feeney of "heresy," he has completely abandoned the authority of dogma that he had previously defended.  It is in fact bizarre to see him use the doctrinal narrative from Trent to interpret a dogmatic canon in a non-literal sense.  The dogmatic canon has far greater authority than the doctrinal narrative because the canon is literally divine revelation.  If there is any question of conflict or misunderstanding between the narrative and the canon, it is the canon that resolves the conflict and determines the proper understanding.

    If the teaching "Baptism of Desire,"  which has never been explicitly defined, was a teaching de fide of the extra-ordinary Magisteium from Trent or ordinary and universal Magisterium, Fr. Feeney would have been excommunicated for heresy.  He was not.  He was reconciled to the Church without an adjuration of heresy.  The communities he founded and who teach and defend his teaching are in communion with their local ordinaries.  

    It is a common theological opinion.  Even the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church which teaches "Baptism of Desire" and has an authority equivalent to any other catechism says, "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.'"  

    Fr. Feeney was a lot smarter than Fr. Kramer, and in my opinion, more virtuous.  He was a faithful Catholic priest who fought the good fight to defend the faith when few even recognized that it was being attacked.  He was censored for defending the dogma Extra-Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (EENS) by the 1949 Holy Office Letter which had nothing to do with baptism either in "votum" or in "re".  Those who consider Fr. Feeney a "heretic" can only do so by defending the 1949 Holy Office Letter and that includes Fr. Kramer.  

    We must all "realize (our) place and learn from your betters" but in this argument, Fr. Kramer is not the better.  

    Drew