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Author Topic: Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS  (Read 4560 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2010, 06:53:54 AM »
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    Quote:
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    Sure, God is not limited by the Sacraments



    Now for that statement to have any meaning, it must mean that someone can be saved without water baptism.


    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. So let me make myself clear: God is not limited by the sacrament of baptism in saving a soul, and can save without baptism. I never said He couldn't. Never.

    I said "he doesn't." In other words, to make it clear, "I don't believe He does." If I don't believe He does, it means, to me, "he doesn't."

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    According to your view (it would seem) it's not possible for anyone to be saved without water baptism.


    I never said that. Let me repeat it for you somewhat differently: I think God could save a man without baptism, but I don't believe he has, and I don't believe that he will. This is an opinion on my part which could be wrong, and that's fine by me.

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    No, I don't like your position, and I don't think it's Catholic.


    Excuse me? You have the position crystal clear now. Do you want to retract that accusation? If not, please support it with some authority.

    Save yourself some brain cells: make the retraction.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #31 on: September 09, 2010, 06:57:14 AM »
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    According to your view (it would seem)


    No, according to your interpretation it would seem. I never said what you allege I said.

    Stop battling your Feeneyite demons and have the courtesy to listen to what I'm saying and respond to what I'm saying.

    Thank you.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #32 on: September 09, 2010, 07:23:37 AM »
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  • Just so we're clear on the "Feeneyite" position:

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    From Bread of Life, page 121:


    Question: If you got int the state of justification with the aid of "Baptism of Desire", and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?

    Answer: Never.


    This is not my position.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #33 on: September 09, 2010, 07:25:07 AM »
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  • trad,


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    DecemRationis, am I correct in my assumption that Fr. Paul Trinchard followed Fr. Feeney in his interpretation of the Church's Magisterial docuмents?


    I don't know the answer on that at the moment.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Matto

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2010, 07:36:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: DecemRationis
    Just so we're clear on the "Feeneyite" position:

    Quote
    From Bread of Life, page 121:


    Question: If you got int the state of justification with the aid of "Baptism of Desire", and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?

    Answer: Never.


    This is not my position.

    DR

    If this is the "Feeneyite" position, that there is such a thing as "baptism of desire" but that it does not save, then I misused the word "Feeneyite" in my previous post out of ignorance. I apologize.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Belloc

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2010, 07:39:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: DecemRationis
    Just so we're clear on the "Feeneyite" position:

    Quote
    From Bread of Life, page 121:


    Question: If you got int the state of justification with the aid of "Baptism of Desire", and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?

    Answer: Never.


    This is not my position.

    DR


    source for that book? who is writer? and "never"? really, certainly apparently knows the intimate mind and heart of God...."hey God, you never do that, got it!"

    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2010, 04:24:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Although I do believe in BOD and BOB, it bothers me to hear someone say that the Feeneyite view "makes an utter mockery of God's justice"


    Yes, it does.  The argument against "baptism of blood" can only be based on the presumption that God is a capricious tyrant who sends Catholic martyrs to Hell because they weren't baptized yet.

    You can't be a Catholic and believe that God does unjust things.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 07:35:47 PM »
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  • trad,

    I'm a new reader of Fr. Trinchard. I recently acquired a couple of his books, which concern the Latin Mass. I'm very impressed, and would describe his approach to Mass as "mystical." It's really beautiful and quite profound.

    I am not familiar with his stance on EENS and Father Feeney, but came across this review on a book of his, All About Salvation:

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    ALL ABOUT PAUL TRINCHARD

    Another noteworthy personality and featured speaker at the pro-Feeney traditionalist conference in Hyannis was The Remnant columnist and ex-Jesuit Fr. Paul Trinchard, author of the newly-released All About Salvation, published by Catholic Treasures in Monrovia, California.

    Trinchard's book is a rambling and repetitive diatribe against, well, pretty much everyone you can imagine. His excessive use of bold print and upper case letters indicates either problems with his keyboard or a belief that ordinary English punctuation cannot convey the venom he feels for the Catholic Church today. The book is dedicated, in part, to Fr. Feeney, and carries the endorsement of the Our Lady of Fatima pilgrim statue escort Louis Kaczmarek, who claims the book "is the voice of a courageous priest going right to the heart of the troubles plaguing the Church."

    And what is the matter with the Church, according to Fr. Trinchard? Currently, he says, the Church "IN PRACTICE" is a "Christ-betraying institution" and is "FALLEN and ROTTEN from top to bottom." This is due to the fact that modern popes and virtually all the bishops do not preach the Church's "SALUTARY DOGMA," which is (you guessed it!) extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    "GOD HAS A BIG PROBLEM"

    Trinchard goes on to inform his readers that "GOD HAS A BIG PROBLEM." Efforts at reforming this "rotten" Church will be made more difficult in these days because John Paul II is a "sinful" man who must turn "180 degrees" from his present course. The Vatican itself is a "MAN-RUN" institution that he claims is not only basically evil, but actually part of a Satanic network on earth that includes the Masons, the NEA, and the ACLU. Trinchard derisively refers to the Second Vatican Council as "weird," and a "non-Council," urging his readers to adopt the "spirit of Fatima" rather than that of Vatican II. He also angrily describes the new Catechism of the Catholic Church as a "New Age 'MAN-adoring"' catechism rife with "mega-heresy."

    At one point in All About Salvation, Trinchard claims that if any readers are having doubts about the truth of what he is writing, those doubts are "demonically inspired." He ends by asserting only those people who believe the doctrine as he has outlined it will avoid hell— which he erroneously, yet dogmatically, describes as "including Limbo."

    During the course of his book, of course, Trinchard does rightly condemn a number of modern-day abuses in areas like catechetics, the liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and many other areas. But he goes much too far in saying the Church has lost "her most precious possessions: the Mass, Sacraments, and DOGMA of faith." In this way, he repeats the error of his hero, Fr. Feeney. There was certainly much merit to Feeney's criticism of the secularized education then only beginning to afflict this nation's Catholic universities. But efforts at reform of the Church independent of or in contradiction to the See of Peter are inherently doomed and extremely counter- productive.


    The article was by a guy named Michael Mazza, and is here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=963&CFID=50144501&CFTOKEN=72989559

    I can't say the article lowered Fr. Trinchard in my estimation at all.  :smile:

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #38 on: September 10, 2010, 09:44:13 PM »
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  • Belloc,

    Sorry for not responding to your question. Bread of Life is Father Feeney's book, and the answers to those questions, such as that "Never," are from Father Feeney himself.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.