Author Topic: No Salvation Outside the Church (Read 2232 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2016, 12:41:29 PM »

Thank you Catholic Mom of Seven,

This is very standard stuff and has been in all the Catholic Catechisms since Trent (where BOD was taught) and even before.

Basically non-members can die in a state of sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace can only be obtained within the Mystical Body of Christ which is the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore non-members can be saved within the Church by desire so long as the other per-requisites are there i.e. a supernatural Faith and perfect charity.

The problem in when people equate "members" and "within" as meaning the exact same thing. They do not mean the exact same thing. All the Doctors of the Church and all the approved pre-V2 theologians could make this basic distinction. Pius XII clarified it on at least three separate occasions.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** May 09, 2016, 01:38:10 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Basically non-members can die in a state of sanctifying grace.

False. Only members of the Body of Christ can be saved. St. Robert Bellarmine holds that catechumens who are in a position to be saved by BoD become members in voto and not that they are non-members simpliciter. That's why Pius XII uses the term "actually" (a distinction from in voto) in Mystici Corporis.

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2016, 02:24:27 PM »

Quote from: CathMomof7

I have been researching this topic for a friend. Today I found this in PDF online. I am only sharing without commentary.

Can one be saved by Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood?

There should never be any need to research something that says "Outside the Church there is no salvation". The same goes for St. Paul's infallible teaching that there is One Lord, one faith, one Baptism - Eph 4:5

So the very reason to even ask "How many baptisms are there?" is to outright and blatantly deny, clear, infallible teaching.

Remember the heretical McCork outright rejected Our Lord's proposition:

Quote from: McCork

Quote from: ihsv

Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Don't pretend as if your question is not based directly on Scripture.

It is obvious from my messages that the answer to your question is "yes".

You can see from the heresy of LoE that he scandalizes in a different manner than McCork, but the aim is the same - to convince whoever he can that, contrary to defined dogma, there actually is salvation outside the Church and in contradiction of the words of Our Lord, a man can enter heaven without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2016, 02:39:27 PM »

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica:

Quote

“After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica:

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“And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.”

Is he saying, by say 70 A.D., everyone that comes into existence from that time on must explicitly believe in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity even if it has not been revealed to them through no fault of their own? Does he contradict himself when he appears to teach contrary to how some understand the above? I do not believe Saint Thomas contradicts himself on the issue. And the weighted teaching throughout the centuries have made the teaching clear as summarized in the authoritative docuмent Suprema haec, which repeats the infallible and de fide doctrine on BOD.

All we know is that it is possible for non-members to be saved so long as they die within the Church at least by desire, even if that desire is only implicit. We should not speculate further. No one can know of the Church's necessity for salvation, refuse to join as a member and be saved. The same is true in regards to the necessity of baptism.

No one culpably ignorant of the necessity of the Church and baptism for salvation can be saved.

No invincibly ignorant person in regards to the necessity of the Church and Baptism can be saved by merely wishing to join the Church or be baptized, but must have an active desire that is willing to do what God wills them to do.

The feeneyites represent the teaching of the Church on this issue pretending we teach contrary to the above.

We do no disservice to souls by defending the infallible truth of BOD against the heretical notion that denies it. Souls made aware of the Catholic Faith cannot be considered inculpably ignorant, if they refuse to look seriously and dispassionately into her claims.

We show souls that the Church merely teaches what her Founder teaches, and shows Him not to be the arbitrary Tyrant the Feeneyites would have Him be. The teaching on BOD puts the Church and her Founder in a favorable light merely showing that God does not condemn anyone not culpable of any objective active sin committed.

Some boldly, inexplicably and seemingly dishonestly claim that we teach that baptism is optional, as if when trying to convert someone we tell them if and when you realize the Catholic Church is the One True Church you can either get baptized or merely desire to be baptized. People who make this assertion should be banned and never heard from again as they take away from the possibility of discussing the topic in a sane manner.

Those old enough to make a decision for or against God do so and their hearts are known only by God. Every person in existence is either in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Satan. Some go back and forth throughout life. But there is no third option or middle ground. Here is an area where there is no grey as God sees it. It is grey in our minds because we cannot read the hearts of men as God does. He knows if they love him with the love of benevolence and have a supernatural faith based upon Divine Revelation. The Church merely teaches that at a minimum this is what is required in order for them to be saved. Many pretend the Catholic Church is not the true Church because they do not want to change their lifestyles. But God knows their hearts. Some, not to few throughout history have been inculpably ignorant on the necessity of the Church for salvation, and are not damned for that reason. They may be damned for other reasons however.

They either love God with the love of charity, and are therefore striving towards membership within the Church, even if they do not join before they die, or they have an aversion to God and therefore despite all their protestations to the contrary, are culpably ignorant for the sake of convenience and will be damned.

This not something made up by me. This has been hashed out and clarified over the centuries, especially when the theologians were finally done clarifying membership in the the Church and her visibility in response to the Protestant revolt and then could focus on the neglected issue of how one can be within the Church despite not being a member. God does not condemn a soul for an actual sin they are not culpable of. We have the Church's infallible backing on the issue. If she taught the contrary [water or damnation] even if only authoritatively and not infallibly, I would readily accept it.

The theologians, Fathers, Doctors, Saints who researched the issue simply conclude, with infallible backing, that one must have a supernatural faith and perfect charity in order to be saved, and this is indeed possible apart from water baptism, as has been infallibly taught by Saint Ambrose and countless others since. It would be ridiculous for the Church to infallibly teach baptism of desire while at the same time denying it is impossible to obtain sanctifying grace apart from water. But such theories have to be brought up by the desperate Feeneyites.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2016, 12:38:34 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: Lover of Truth
However, one can still be saved by the water of Baptism (fluminis), desire (flaminis), or blood (sanguinis) and no Feeneyite can dispute or interpret that the Church ever decreed one could only be saved by water. That should sink their argument.

As you well know, all Church Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church who taught BoD taught it only for catechumens and those who have explicit belief in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity. Your heretical doctrine of implicit BoD for invincibly ignorant was never taught by the Church nor by Saints - no Saint believed that souls can be saved in false religions without membership in the Catholic Church.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.

You cannot be inside the Church if you do not recognize, accept and obey the authority of successors of Peter. This completely refutes the doctrine of salvation for "invincibly ignorant" non-members of the Church who did not convert.

THE ALLOCUTION SINGULARI QUADAM

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Not without sorrow have we seen that another error, and one not less ruinous [than the error of crass rationalism dealt with in the previous section of the allocution], has taken possession of certain portions of the Catholic world, and has entered into the souls of many Catholics who think that they can well hope for the eternal salvation of all those who have in no way entered into the true Church of Christ. For that reason they are accustomed to inquire time and time again as to what is going to be the fate and the condition after death of those who have never yielded themselves to the Catholic faith and, convinced by completely inadequate arguments (vanissimisque adductis rationibus), they await a response that will favor this evil teaching. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume to establish limits to the divine mercy, which is infinite. Far be it from Us to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsels and judgments of God, which are "a great deep," and which human thought can never pentrate. In accordance with Our apostolic duty, We wish to stir up your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to drive out of men's minds, to the extent to which you are able to use all your energies, that opinion, equally impious and deadly, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion (quavis in religion reperiri posse aeternae salutis viam). With all the skill and learning at your command, you should prove to the people entrusted to your care that this dogma of the Catholic faith is in no way opposed to the divine mercy and justice.

Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside the apostolic Roman Church, that this is the only Ark of salvation, and that the one who does not enter it is going to perish in the deluge. But, nevertheless, we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that [ignorance] be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord. Now, who is there who would arrogate to himself the power to indicate the extent of such [invincible] ignorance according to the nature and the variety of peoples, regions, talents, and so many other things? For really when, loosed from these bodily bonds, we see God as He is, we shall certainly understand with what intimate and beautiful a connection the divine mercy and justice are joined together. But, while we live on earth, weighed down by this mortal body that darkens the mind, let us hold most firmly, from Catholic doctrine, that there is one God, one faith, one baptism. It is wrong to push our inquiries further than this.

For the rest, as the cause of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers to God that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ. And let us do all in our power to bring about the common salvation of men, for the hand of the Lord is not shortened and the gifts of heavenly grace will never be lacking to those who sincerely wish and pray to be comforted in this light. Truths of this kind must be deeply implanted in the minds of the faithful so that they may not be corrupted by the false doctrines that tend to encourage the religious indifference (doctrinis eo spectantibus, ut religionis foveant indifferentiam) which we see being spread abroad and strengthened to the ruination of souls. [Denz., 1646-48]

1. It is a ruinous error to imagine that one can have grounds of hope that people now dead, and who had not entered into the Church in any way during the course of their lives, are saved.

2. The dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is in no way opposed to the truth that God is all-merciful and all-just.

3. The doctrine that no one is saved outside the Catholic Church is a truth revealed by God through Jesus Christ, and a truth which all men must believe with the assent of divine faith. It is a Catholic dogma.

4. Invincible ignorance, of the true Church or of anything else, is not considered by God as a sin. The dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church in no way implies that invincible ignorance is sinful.

5. It is an impious and deadly error to hold that salvation may be attained in any religion.

6. It is not within the field either of our competence or of our rights to search out the way in which God's mercy and His justice operate in any given case of a person ignorant of the true Church or of the true religion. We shall see how these divine attributes have operated in the light of the Beatific Vision itself.

7. It is the business of the Church to work and to pray that all men will attain salvation in the Church.

9. God is never outdone in generosity. The person who tries to come to Him will never be forsaken. As a matter of fact, the movement toward God, like all good things, originates from God Himself.

Monsignor Fenton