Author Topic: No Salvation Outside the Church (Read 11013 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #120 on:** January 14, 2014, 04:52:21 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Stubborn,

Who approves the catechisms of the Church? Who commissions the theologians to explain the truth of the Faith and approves their writings?

You skirt the issue since you reject the direct magisterial teachings on the necessity of the sacraments.

The only question you need to answer is: do you believe the sacraments are necessary unto salvation and that without them man cannot be justified? (the answers are below)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

As I said to LoT a few posts ago in this thread, I have proven that like him, you do not believe what the Church teaches because you consistently reject the above infallible teaching of the Church.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #121 on:** January 14, 2014, 05:35:25 AM »

Stubborn must have missed some things in my last post. Here it is again. He is welcome to answer the questions:

Can you show me the quote where I state a that belief in Christ and the Trinity is definitely not necessary?

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil. I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace.

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

But what you are trying to do here is undermine me personally as I am one of the biggest thorns in your erroneous/heretical side.

The point of the matter, and you refuse to admit it though I have given you numerous chances to do so, is that you believe that no one at all in the New Covenant can be saved or has been saved or will be saved apart from water.

The fact that you will not be pinned down on this when I ask you proves your intellectual dishonesty.

Do you believe anyone can be saved apart from water? Yes or no? It is not a difficult question. Do you side with the Church or yourself?

If you don't believe one can be saved apart from water then from your perspective, whether there are two or four minimal things one must believe for BOD to be possible is irrelevant, again from your perspective. So fess up and admit you do not believe in salvation apart from water or admit you realize that you could be wrong on the issue and that BOD is possible under at least some circuмstance(s).

Which is it? BOD possible? BOD impossible?

Stubborn · « **Reply #122 on:** January 14, 2014, 07:02:31 AM »

Hey LoT - you must have missed this post - - -now you can answer the questions.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

You and Ambrose both make the same false claim.

Watch, I will show you that it is easily proven below that you do not believe what the Church teaches therefore you do not teach what the Church teaches.

Do you believe the Church teaches the sacraments are necessary unto salvation?
Do you believe the Church teaches that without the sacraments man can be justified?

Quote from: Trent

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Now lets have an 11 page essay on how the teaching above does not mean what it says and that it really is only teaching theologians so they can interpret it into meaning exactly opposite of what it does not say for us - THEN you can say that is the only correct we that we are supposed to understand it.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #123 on:** January 14, 2014, 09:39:44 AM »

I'll bold the questions or put them in red since it seems you missed them again.

Can you show me the quote where I state a that belief in Christ and the Trinity is definitely not necessary?

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil. I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace.

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

But what you are trying to do here is undermine me personally as I am one of the biggest thorns in your erroneous/heretical side.

The point of the matter, and you refuse to admit it though I have given you numerous chances to do so, is that you believe that no one at all in the New Covenant can be saved or has been saved or will be saved apart from water.

The fact that you will not be pinned down on this when I ask you proves your intellectual dishonesty.

Do you believe anyone can be saved apart from water? Yes or no? It is not a difficult question. Do you side with the Church or yourself?

If you don't believe one can be saved apart from water then from your perspective, whether there are two or four minimal things one must believe for BOD to be possible is irrelevant, again from your perspective. So fess up and admit you do not believe in salvation apart from water or admit you realize that you could be wrong on the issue and that BOD is possible under at least some circuмstance(s).

Which is it? BOD possible? BOD impossible?

Stubborn · « **Reply #124 on:** January 14, 2014, 11:20:18 AM »

Hey LoT - you must have missed this post - - -now you can answer the questions.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

You and Ambrose both make the same false claim.

Watch, I will show you that it is easily proven below that you do not believe what the Church teaches therefore you do not teach what the Church teaches.

Do you believe the Church teaches the sacraments are necessary unto salvation?
Do you believe the Church teaches that without the sacraments man can be justified?

Quote from: Trent

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Now lets have an 11 page essay on how the teaching above does not mean what it says and that it really is only teaching theologians so they can interpret it into meaning exactly opposite of what it does not say for us - THEN you can say that is the only correct we that we are supposed to understand it.

Cantarella · « **Reply #125 on:** January 14, 2014, 11:42:36 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil. I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace.

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

Practically "everyone" believes that there is a God, LoT :rolleyes:. That does not mean that they are adoring the Only True God or that they think they have any responsibility towards HIM, and even less so, that they will save their souls in their religions. There are pagans and those in false religions that rather worship creatures rather than the Creator. They know that these things aren’t the Creator of the universe and they still persist in adoring them. Every such person knows that he is worshipping a creature rather than the Creator. Even the ones that believe that are worshipping the Creator, are forgetting an INDISPENSABLE part and is the belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONLY SAVIOR of humanity. They are, as St. Paul says, without excuse.

St. Augustine explains this well in reference to persons who died ignorant of the Faith and without baptism. “… God foreknew that if they had lived and the gospel had been preached to them, they would have heard it without belief.”

And if somebody accepted the truth, if he were intellectually honest enough to say, “God, reveal Yourself to me,” and if God found in such soul a good will and the right disposition, then God would send an angel, if necessary, as He sent an angel to Cornelius in Acts chapter 10; and He would follow it up with a missionary who would bring the good news and the Sacrament of Baptism.

St. Thomas says that if the if the invisible ignorant do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

John 18:37: “For this was I born, and for this came I into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth: every one who is of the truth, heareth my voice.”

bowler · « **Reply #126 on:** January 14, 2014, 11:58:59 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil.

1) Are you aware that no Father, Saint, Doctor, council, ever taught that belief?

2) Are you aware that it is opposed to the Athanasian Creed, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus Ligouri and DOGMA:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

3) That theory is not found in any catechism till the 20th century.

4) then how can you say "the Church teaches"? You could say the church allows it at present, however, know that it also allows Vatican II, which you reject because of its teachings on ecuмenism and religious liberty, both of which are grounded in your belief of Heroin BOD.

Quote

I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace. I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

The majority today 99% teach Heroin BOD (even the trad groups like SSPX, CMRI, SSPV etc). If you accept Heroin BOD and defend it, then there is no reason for you to reject Vatican II's teachings on ecuмenism and religious liberty, both of which are grounded in your belief of Heroin BOD.

Ambrose · « **Reply #127 on:** January 14, 2014, 01:00:37 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose

Stubborn,

Who approves the catechisms of the Church? Who commissions the theologians to explain the truth of the Faith and approves their writings?

You skirt the issue since you reject the direct magisterial teachings on the necessity of the sacraments.

The only question you need to answer is: do you believe the sacraments are necessary unto salvation and that without them man cannot be justified? (the answers are below)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

As I said to LoT a few posts ago in this thread, I have proven that like him, you do not believe what the Church teaches because you consistently reject the above infallible teaching of the Church.

I believe every word of the Canon, just not your perverse interpretation of it.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #128 on:** January 14, 2014, 01:35:19 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil. I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace.

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

Practically "everyone" believes that there is a God, LoT :rolleyes:. That does not mean that they are adoring the Only True God or that they think they have any responsibility towards HIM, and even less so, that they will save their souls in their religions. There are pagans and those in false religions that rather worship creatures rather than the Creator. They know that these things aren’t the Creator of the universe and they still persist in adoring them. Every such person knows that he is worshipping a creature rather than the Creator. Even the ones that believe that are worshipping the Creator, are forgetting an INDISPENSABLE part and is the belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONLY SAVIOR of humanity. They are, as St. Paul says, without excuse.

St. Augustine explains this well in reference to persons who died ignorant of the Faith and without baptism. “… God foreknew that if they had lived and the gospel had been preached to them, they would have heard it without belief.”

And if somebody accepted the truth, if he were intellectually honest enough to say, “God, reveal Yourself to me,” and if God found in such soul a good will and the right disposition, then God would send an angel, if necessary, as He sent an angel to Cornelius in Acts chapter 10; and He would follow it up with a missionary who would bring the good news and the Sacrament of Baptism.

St. Thomas says that if the if the invisible ignorant do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

John 18:37: “For this was I born, and for this came I into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth: every one who is of the truth, heareth my voice.”

AGAIN, that is not all that is required. It must be a supernatural faith accompanied by perfect charity. These people, for salvation to be possible must truly will to do God's will and not be culpably ignorant of what His will is. The must love God with the love of charity preferring to suffer rather than sin.

This is far different than "believing in God" with a token lip service and being saved by that.

But this is obvious to those who actually read what the Church teaches. Those against the Church teaching on BOD try to make the must liberal interpretation of BOD and knock that down. In the objective realm it is intellectually dishonest to misrepresent BOD and use that misrepresentation as a bases to promote the error/heresy of Feeneyism.

This is what Stubborn does. He says "Wow you believe people who do not even believe in the Incarnation or Holy Trinity can be saved!!!!!"

But he acts as if that the Church teaches that is all that is necessary for salvation to be secured. I hope the good-willed can see through the facade of inventing straw-men and knocking them down.

If you want to undermine the Catholic teaching of BOD at least have the intellectual honesty to represent the teaching accurately.

Correct me if I am wrong. I will do what I ask you to do and represent your belief accurately. A teaching which the Church smashes to smithereens as has been proved over and over again on this site. You teach that:

No one can be saved apart from water.

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you or do you not believe one must be baptized with water in order to be saved?

I accurately represent what you teach. Can you pay the same respect to those who present the Church's teaching on BOD. Get the requisites necessary for BOD or right or avoid speaking on the issue.

Matto · « **Reply #129 on:** January 14, 2014, 01:40:19 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose
I believe every word of the Canon, just not your perverse interpretation of it.[/quote

It is the BODers who change the meaning of the words of the Canon. Those who reject BOD do so because they believe what it actually says. They do not give it a perverse interpretation but believe what it actually says clearly.

Ambrose · « **Reply #130 on:** January 14, 2014, 01:55:37 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Ambrose
I believe every word of the Canon, just not your perverse interpretation of it.[/quote

It is the BODers who change the meaning of the words of the Canon. Those who reject BOD do so because they believe what it actually says. They do not give it a perverse interpretation but believe what it actually says clearly.

Matto,

Do you believe this Canon is teaching against Baptism of Desire and Blood?

Matto · « **Reply #131 on:** January 14, 2014, 02:01:22 PM »

I believe that it teaches that the Sacraments instituted by Christ are necessary for salvation.

If BOB and BOD saved people, then it would mean that it is possible to be saved without the sacraments and then this teaching of the Church would be a lie.

Ambrose · « **Reply #132 on:** January 14, 2014, 02:10:17 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I believe that it teaches that the Sacraments instituted by Christ are necessary for salvation.

If BOB and BOD saved people, then it would mean that it is possible to be saved without the sacraments and then this teaching of the Church would be a lie.

Baptism of Desire and Blood achieve the effects of the sacrament (except for the mark). The desire to receive them suffices.

The Canon must be understood as the Church understands it, not a mid 20th century group from Boston.

SJB and I have asked Stubborn many times over to provide an authority who interprets Trent the way he does, and he keeps dodging.

The reason why is that this idea that Trent taught against Baptism of Desire in these Canons is a perversion of doctrine. Whenever Trent is cited in relation to Baptism of Desire, all authorities cite it as teaching Baptism of Desire.

Since the Council of Trent, it is a heresy to deny Baptism of Desire. You must believe it, or you risk losing your membership in the Church, therefore your salvation.

Matto · « **Reply #133 on:** January 14, 2014, 02:13:17 PM »

You should ask Ladislaus if Trent taught BOD. He knows more than me and is good at explaining how Trent did not teach BOD. If you seek an argument, go ask him.

Cantarella · « **Reply #134 on:** January 14, 2014, 02:15:43 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: Lover of Truth

I know that the Church teaches that such a person must believe, at very least, that there is a God and this must be a supernatural belief based upon Divine Revelation and that this God rewards good and punishes evil. I also know that the majority view of those qualified to teach on the subject is that there must also be a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity but it is not conclusive, it has not been definitively settled, one way or the other, that these last two are absolutely necessary for one to have supernatural Faith, perfect charity and sanctifying grace.

I only teach what has been taught within the Church. If the Church allows for debate on the issue I allow for it.

Practically "everyone" believes that there is a God, LoT :rolleyes:. That does not mean that they are adoring the Only True God or that they think they have any responsibility towards HIM, and even less so, that they will save their souls in their religions. There are pagans and those in false religions that rather worship creatures rather than the Creator. They know that these things aren’t the Creator of the universe and they still persist in adoring them. Every such person knows that he is worshipping a creature rather than the Creator. Even the ones that believe that are worshipping the Creator, are forgetting an INDISPENSABLE part and is the belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONLY SAVIOR of humanity. They are, as St. Paul says, without excuse.

St. Augustine explains this well in reference to persons who died ignorant of the Faith and without baptism. “… God foreknew that if they had lived and the gospel had been preached to them, they would have heard it without belief.”

And if somebody accepted the truth, if he were intellectually honest enough to say, “God, reveal Yourself to me,” and if God found in such soul a good will and the right disposition, then God would send an angel, if necessary, as He sent an angel to Cornelius in Acts chapter 10; and He would follow it up with a missionary who would bring the good news and the Sacrament of Baptism.

St. Thomas says that if the if the invisible ignorant do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

John 18:37: “For this was I born, and for this came I into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth: every one who is of the truth, heareth my voice.”

AGAIN, that is not all that is required. It must be a supernatural faith accompanied by perfect charity. These people, for salvation to be possible must truly will to do God's will and not be culpably ignorant of what His will is. The must love God with the love of charity preferring to suffer rather than sin.

This is far different than "believing in God" with a token lip service and being saved by that.

But this is obvious to those who actually read what the Church teaches. Those against the Church teaching on BOD try to make the must liberal interpretation of BOD and knock that down. In the objective realm it is intellectually dishonest to misrepresent BOD and use that misrepresentation as a bases to promote the error/heresy of Feeneyism.

This is what Stubborn does. He says "Wow you believe people who do not even believe in the Incarnation or Holy Trinity can be saved!!!!!"

But he acts as if that the Church teaches that is all that is necessary for salvation to be secured. I hope the good-willed can see through the facade of inventing straw-men and knocking them down.

If you want to undermine the Catholic teaching of BOD at least have the intellectual honesty to represent the teaching accurately.

Correct me if I am wrong. I will do what I ask you to do and represent your belief accurately. A teaching which the Church smashes to smithereens as has been proved over and over again on this site. You teach that:

No one can be saved apart from water.

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you or do you not believe one must be baptized with water in order to be saved?

I accurately represent what you teach. Can you pay the same respect to those who present the Church's teaching on BOD. Get the requisites necessary for BOD or right or avoid speaking on the issue.

It matters little what I believe, what it matters is the Divine Infallible Teaching of the Church which does not err and cannot be contradicted. The Church has consistently and infallibly taught that Baptism (of water) is necessary to obtain life everlasting. No one has the power to change a Sacrament so explicitly instituted by Our Lord.

The matter for Baptism as given to us by CHRIST HIMSELF (see Jon 3:5) is true and natural WATER. (See also Eph.5:26; Per 1:20-21)

The form for Baptism consist in the invocation of the Holy Trinity given by CHRIST HIMSELF in the Gospel of St Matthew (28:19).

There is NO TRUE Baptism without proper matter or form. God has revealed that there is only ONE Baptism and that of water and the word.

Infallible Magisterium:

A. Council of Lateran IV, The Catholic Faith:

The sacrament of Baptism, which at the invocation of God and the undivided Trinity, namely the Father the Son and The Holy Ghost, is solemnized in water, righly conferred to anyone in the form of the Curch is useful unto salvation.

B. Council of Florence, Exaltate Domino (1439):

Holy Baptism...holds the first place among the sacraments....the matter of this sacrament is real and natural water, it makes no difference warm or cold.

C. Pope Innocent III, Non ut Apponeres (1206):

In Baptism, two things are always and necessarily required, namely the words and the element (water)...You ought not to doubt that they do not have true Baptism in which one of them is missing.

D. Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism (Canon 2)

If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

God would not contradict His own Word and Christ Lord expressly instituted the necessity of water Baptism for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Church also condemns anyone who holds that this could be optional.