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Author Topic: No Salvation Outside the Church  (Read 11012 times)

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Offline bowler

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No Salvation Outside the Church
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2014, 06:41:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    To Bowler,

    . As you can read, Venerable Mary records:

    Thus on that day of the presence of the King were depopulated the prisonhouses of both limbo and purgatory.



    The authority of Scripture suffices:


    .


    There you go gain, now you misquote private revelation, and self interpret scripture.

    Are you a Catholic, and where do you go to mass? Can you answer that?

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #91 on: January 07, 2014, 06:45:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    THE TRUE SENSE OF THE VINCENTIAN CANON
    By Cardinal Johann Baptist Franzelin S.J. (1816-1886)

    Thesis concerning the true sense of the Vincentian Canon.

    1. The Canon [or theological rule] of Saint Vincent of Lerins (Commonitorium Chapters 2, 4, 27 and 29) which assigns universality, antiquity and consensus of faith as characteristics of Catholic doctrine is perfectly true in the affirmative sense. In other words, a doctrine bearing these marks is certainly a dogma of the Catholic faith. It is not however true in the exclusive sense, i.e. if it be understood to mean that nothing can belong to the Catholic faith which has not been explicitly believed always, everywhere and by all.

    2. In the context of the Commonitorium itself, the purport of the rule is simply to state two marks, either of which is sufficient to prove the absolute antiquity, or apostolicity, of a doctrine, viz : (a) the present consensus of the Church, and (b) the consensus of relative antiquity, i.e. as it stood before the controversy arose.

    I

    The Canon in question is stated by Saint Vincent of Lerins in the following terms: “Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic... This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity and consensus.” (Chapter 2) Note first that the reference is not to any points whatsoever that are held and observed in the Church irrespective of the way in which they held. It is to those which are believed, i.e. held by faith. Now a thing can be believed in either of two ways: explicitly, or only implicitly. Whatever is contained in the deposit of objective revelation has certainly been believed at least implicitly everywhere, always and by all Catholics and nothing can be contained in the deposit of revelation which is not so believed. One would at once cease to be a Catholic if one were not ready to believe everything which has been sufficiently proposed to one as divinely revealed—or if one’s habit of faith did not extend to the assent to be accorded to everything included in revelation. But in this sense “to have been believed always and everywhere” cannot be given as a criterion and theological touchstone for recognising what is contained in revelation, for the objects of implicit faith are not in themselves known as revealed. And on the other hand, to investigate whether something has been at least implicitly believed everywhere, always, by all, is the same thing as investigating whether it is contained in objective revelation and Tradition; and it must therefore be established in the light of some other criterion—it cannot be itself a means of establishing it. So although it is true, both in the affirmative sense and in the exclusive sense, that everything belongs to the deposit of faith which has been at least implicitly believed everywhere, always, and by all, and that nothing belongs to this deposit which has not been so believed, nevertheless this cannot be the meaning of the Vincentian Canon.

    It follows that the proposed criterion can only be understood of explicit faith. Now it has been established in the preceding theses that a universal consensus in recognising some dogma as a doctrine of faith, at whatever period this consensus may exist, is a definite criterion of divinely transmitted doctrine.93 There is therefore no doubt that such an agreement or consensus in antiquity proves divine Tradition, and that the consensus of all ages does so most splendidly.94 So whatever has been believed always, everywhere and by all, cannot but have been revealed and divinely transmitted.

    However it has been no less established in the foregoing that certain points of doctrine can be contained in the deposit of objective revelation which were not always contained in the manifest and explicit preaching of the Church, and that for as long as they were not sufficiently proposed it was possible for them to be the object of controversy within the limits of the Church without loss of faith and communion.95 So a given point of doctrine can be contained in objective revelation and can also, with the passage of time—when it has been sufficiently explained and proposed—come to belong to those truths which must necessarily be believed with Catholic faith, while yet this truth, though always contained in the deposit of revelation, has not been explicitly believed always, everywhere and by all; nor was there any necessity that it should be so believed. So although the marks listed in the Canon, if present, constitute manifest proof that the doctrine they relate to is a dogma of the Catholic faith, their absence by no means necessarily proves that a given doctrine was not contained in the deposit of faith; neither does it prove that a doctrine, which, for want of sufficient proposition at a given time, did not need to be explicitly believed, may not at some other time be the object of obligatory belief. So the Canon is true in the affirmative sense, but cannot be admitted in the negative and exclusive sense.

    II

    If the Canon is considered in context, and together with the explanations set forth by Saint Vincent, it appears that its meaning is as follows:

    a) The absolute antiquity or apostolicity of a doctrine is not proposed as a mark whereby to establish anything else; it is itself the very point being investigated.

    b) As marks by which the apostolicity of a doctrine can be known, two characteristics are proposed:

    i) universality, i.e. the present consensus of the Church, and,

    ii) the consensus of antiquity,96 to be understood in a relative sense, i.e. a  consensus shown to have existed before the controversy arose.  

    by either of these two marks absolute antiquity can be known and inferred. For when, by virtue either of a solemn judgment of the authentic magisterium (whether of an ecuмenical council or of the pope) or by the unanimous preaching of the Church, a universal present consensus is clear and manifest, this alone suffices of itself; but if, through the arising of a controversy, this consensus were to become less apparent, or were not acknowledged by the adversaries to be confuted, then—says Vincent—appeal must be made to the manifest consensus of antiquity, or to solemn judgements, or to the consentient convictions of the Fathers.

    Finally, if, in some polemical altercation, the heretics were to go so far as not even to venerate the authority of the preceding Fathers, he admits that we have no remaining common principle between them and us save the authority of Scripture. That the foregoing interpretation is the true one is clear from the entire context of Saint Vincent’s Commonitorium.

    a) He says that one must hold “what has been believed everywhere, always and by all,” without distinguishing whether it was so believed implicitly or explicitly (Chapter 2). But then he indicates marks by which we can come to know whether something was thus believed everywhere, always and by all, and these marks are: universality, antiquity and consensus. “This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consensus.” Hence, “what has been believed everywhere, always and by all” is not itself a criterion [of the duty to believe] but is rather something to be established by means of distinct criteria, namely universality, antiquity and consensus.

    b) What Vincent means by universality he explains straight away: “We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses.” Hence universality is the agreement of the entire Church, and, insofar as it is distinct from the mark of antiquity, it is the consent of the Church at this present time when the controversy has arisen. This is manifest from Chapter 3 in which Vincent contrasts universality, as the present consensus, which can be troubled by newly invented errors, with antiquity, i.e. the agreement of the previous age “which at this day cannot possibly be seduced by any fraud of novelty”. Moreover in the Chapter 29 he says that universal consent is to be followed “lest we...be torn from the integrity of unity and carried away to schism,” which he illustrates in Chapter 4 by the example of the Catholics in Africa, who “detesting the profane schism [of Donatus], continued in communion with all the churches of the world [which were at that time in agreement].”

    c) The mark of antiquity is understood by Vincent in the sense of relative antiquity, whereby absolute antiquity or apostolicity is to be inferred: this is clear from his entire manner of reasoning. For he invariably situates antiquity in the judgement of preceding Fathers or Councils—a judgement existing before the appearance of the heresy to be refuted or the controversy to be decided. “In antiquity itself..., to the temerity of one or of a very few, they must prefer, first of all, the general decrees, if such there be, of a Universal Council, or if there be no such, then, what is next best, they must follow the consentient belief of many and great masters.” (Chapter 27)97 And in Chapter 28 he says that to ancient heresies one should oppose councils which took place before those heresies arose, while, if even these councils are condemned by the heretics, there remains only the common source of Scripture to use in argument against them.

    d) Finally, Saint Vincent of Lerins everywhere clearly teaches that either one of these two marks—i.e. universal consent and the agreement of antiquity—suffices to demonstrate the apostolicity of a doctrine. Thus in Chapter 3 he writes : i) “What then will a Catholic Christian do if a small portion of the Church have cut itself off from the communion of the universal faith? What, surely, but prefer the soundness of the whole body to the unsoundness of a pestilent and corrupt member?” Here universal consent is opposed to local error. ii) “What, if some novel contagion seek to infect not merely an insignificant portion of the Church, but the whole? Then it will be his care to cleave to antiquity.” Here antiquity is appealed to in the event that contemporary controversies should have muddied the waters and made it hard to establish for the time being the belief of the universal Church. There can therefore be no doubt that the true sense of the Vincentian Canon is the sense explained in our thesis. Any doctrine which is supported by neither of these two marks must be considered as being, at best, not yet sufficiently proposed to Catholic faith; and a doctrine which is repugnant to either mark must be considered to be a profane novelty.

    Publishers’ Note. The foregoing text appears as Thesis XXIV in Franzelin’s masterpiece De Divina Traditione et Scriptura (Rome, 1875).

    Footnotes:

    93 See Theses V, n. iii ; VIII, nn. I, ii ; Corollary I to Thesis IX; Thesis XI, n. ii.
    94 See Theses XIV, XV.
    95 See Corollary ii to Thesis IX and Thesis XXIII.
    96 Vincent’s apparently tripartite division in certain chapters : universitas, antiquitas, consensio, in fact contains not three but only two truly distinct parts, as is apparent from the author’s own explanation., and in Chapter 29 (i.e. the Recapitulation which is all that survives of the second Commonitorium), he himself reduces the three to two: “Regard must be had to the consentient voice of universality equally with that of antiquity.”
    97 There are no grounds for seeing in this or other passages from Saint Vincent of Lerins an error against the infallible authority of the definitions of the Roman Pontiff. Saint Vincent’s intention is to set out criteria of doctrinal apostolicity not only for the benefit of Catholics, but also for polemical use against the novelties of heretics—criteria which no one shall be able to refuse.
    a) He offers these criteria against “only...those heresies which are new and recent, and that on their first arising.” (Chapter 28) So, given his supposition that no direct judgement has yet been made against them, he could not fittingly appeal to a papal definition either.
    b) The criteria which he adduces are entirely true. His choice of them does not imply that he denies and excludes other criteria that may be applicable according to circuмstances.
    c) In the criteria which he sets forth, the authentic judgement of the Apostolic See is at least implicitly included. For when such a judgement exists, either it authentically declares the antiquity of the consensus, or else it most certainly brings about universality. Hence if there is an extant pontifical definition promulgated in antiquity...it will always be possible to appeal to “the consentient belief of many and great masters” (Chapter 27).
    d) For Vincent of Lerins, as for Irenæus before him, it is enough to appeal to the authority of the Apostolic See in order to establish the apostolicity of a doctrine. He makes this quite clear in Chapter 6: “It has always been the case in the Church, that the more a man is under the influence of religion, so much the more prompt is he to oppose innovations. Examples there are without number : but to be brief, we will take one, and that, in preference to others, from the Apostolic See, so that it may be clearer than day to everyone with how great energy, with how great zeal, with how great earnestness, the blessed successors of the blessed Apostles [i.e. the Roman Pontiffs] have constantly defended the integrity of the religion which they have once received.” He then recounts the innovation of the re-baptisers from Agrippinus of Carthage, before pursuing in the following terms : “When then all men protested against the novelty, and the priesthood everywhere, each as his zeal prompted him, opposed it, Pope Stephen of blessed memory, Prelate of the Apostolic See, in conjunction indeed with his colleagues but yet himself the foremost, withstood it, thinking it right, I doubt not, that as he exceeded all others in the authority of his position [“loci auctoritate superabat”], so he should also in the devotion of his faith. In fine, in an epistle sent at the time to Africa, he laid down this rule: Let there be no innovation—nothing but what has been handed down... What then was the issue of the whole matter? What but the usual and customary one? Antiquity was retained, novelty was rejected.”
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #92 on: January 07, 2014, 10:25:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Those who undermine the Church's dogma like SJB, LoT, and Ambrose will not be converted.


    They all reduce the Dogma to a meaningless formula.

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #93 on: January 07, 2014, 10:28:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Those who undermine the Church's dogma like SJB, LoT, and Ambrose will not be converted.


    They all reduce the Dogma to a meaningless formula.


    Just place SJB, LoT, and Ambrose on HIDE mode and you are rid of their static.

    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #94 on: January 07, 2014, 10:31:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Those who undermine the Church's dogma like SJB, LoT, and Ambrose will not be converted.


    They all reduce the Dogma to a meaningless formula.


    Just place SJB, LoT, and Ambrose on HIDE mode and you are rid of their static.


     :heretic:


    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 06:24:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    It just seems like nothing new is being said; they keep quoting St. Alphonsus and a handful of modernist theologians, while we keep making the same points from the Fathers, Tradition, and the Church Councils.


    Which modernist theologians are they quoting?

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 06:29:56 AM »
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  • Fenton and Garrigou-Lagrange mostly.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #97 on: January 08, 2014, 08:25:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    It just seems like nothing new is being said; they keep quoting St. Alphonsus and a handful of modernist theologians, while we keep making the same points from the Fathers, Tradition, and the Church Councils.


    Which modernist theologians are they quoting?


    You can read the heresies on any number of Lover of Truth's threads - he is forever quoting the heretic's "non-members saved within the Church" NO double speak, now as far as Garrigou-Lagrange goes, check out *some* of what this "well respected 20th century theologian" taught................

    Quote from: Garrigou-Lagrange

    “Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution. If the question is of the entire human race, the answer must remain uncertain, for the reasons given above. But even if, absolutely, the number of the elect is less great, the glory of God’s government cannot suffer. Quality prevails over quantity. One elect soul is a spiritual universe; further, no evil happens that is not permitted for a higher good. Further, among non-Christians (Jews, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jews and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God.” (Part 5, Chapter 32-The Number of the Elect)


    Is it any wonder the Modernists left him alone?



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #98 on: January 08, 2014, 09:10:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Is it any wonder the Modernists left him alone?


    A few fact to enter into your little head:

    Garrigou-Lagrange died in 1964.

    He was not among the modernist theologians censured under Pope Pius XII.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #99 on: January 08, 2014, 11:17:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Is it any wonder the Modernists left him alone?


    A few fact to enter into your little head:

    Garrigou-Lagrange died in 1964.

    He was not among the modernist theologians censured under Pope Pius XII.


    So, what's that supposed to mean?

    Earlier  I said that G-L and all "well respected" 20th century theologians, including Fenton,  should automatically be suspect of helping lay the ground work for the current crisis - and I told you why, but as usual, none of the BODers here agreed - even thought it was a bad thing to make the accusation - well, now, if you read what is written, you can see with your own eyes he was teaching Universal Salvation - and to this day is "well respected" for that very reason.

    According to Wikipedia:
    He is best known for his spiritual theology. His magnum opus in the field is The Three Ages of the Interior Life, in which he propounded the thesis that infused contemplation and the resulting mystical life are in the normal way of holiness of Christian perfection. This influenced the section entitled "Chapter V: The Universal Call to Holiness in the Church" in the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #100 on: January 08, 2014, 11:24:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Is it any wonder the Modernists left him alone?


    A few fact to enter into your little head:

    Garrigou-Lagrange died in 1964.

    He was not among the modernist theologians censured under Pope Pius XII.


    So, what's that supposed to mean?

    Earlier  I said that G-L and all "well respected" 20th century theologians, including Fenton,  should automatically be suspect of helping lay the ground work for the current crisis - and I told you why, but as usual, none of the BODers here agreed - even thought it was a bad thing to make the accusation - well, now, if you read what is written, you can see with your own eyes he was teaching Universal Salvation - and to this day is "well respected" for that very reason.

    According to Wikipedia:
    He is best known for his spiritual theology. His magnum opus in the field is The Three Ages of the Interior Life, in which he propounded the thesis that infused contemplation and the resulting mystical life are in the normal way of holiness of Christian perfection. This influenced the section entitled "Chapter V: The Universal Call to Holiness in the Church" in the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.


    Have you ever read his works?

    Also, do you reject ALL the theological manuals of the 19th and 20th centuries in favor of an individual's reading of the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent?

    Can you name ONE orthodox manualist? ONE orthodox theologian?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #101 on: January 08, 2014, 11:28:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Any 20th century theologian who is well respected should be suspected of being a part of the problem. If he would have been part of the solution he would have most assuredly been anything except well respected. That's the way the modernists work. And that doesn't mean G-L did not teach the truth, it only means he compromised it enough to not get slandered into oblivion.


    What a stupid and ignorant comment. This just further indicates what many of us already know about you.


    I already posted that L-G taught universal salvation - and you showed your stupidity earlier in the thread as demonstrated above. I could pick any of your posts to show your stupidity but the one above is showing your stupidity for that time.

    It wasn't enough for "the most well-respected and trustworthy Thomist theologian of the 20th century" heretic to preach universal salvation and leave it at that - nope - this well respected theologian teaches REALLY teaches universal salvation - as in, people on other planets being saved.


     
    Quote from: Garrigou-Lagrange

    “When we speak of men exclusively, we do not know, first of all, if among the worlds scattered in space the earth is the only one that is habitable. But if we restrict our question to men on our planet, the number of the elect remains a matter of controversy. …Many Fathers and theologians incline to the smaller number of the elect, because it is said in Scripture: ‘Many are called, but few are chosen.’ Again: ‘Enter you in at the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction; and many there are who go in thereat; how narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life and few there are that find it.’ Still, these texts are not absolutely demonstrative. Thus, following many others, Pere Monsabre remarks: ‘If these words were intended for all places and for all times, then the opinion of the small number of the elect would triumph. But we are permitted to think that they are meant, directly, for the ungrateful time of our Savior’s own preaching. When Jesus wishes us to think of the future, He speaks in another manner. Thus He says to His disciples: ‘If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to Myself.’ …The common opinion of the Fathers and ancient theologians is without doubt that those who are saved do not represent the greater number. We may cite in favor of this view the following saints: Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory nαzιanzen, Hilary, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Leo the Great, Bernard, Thomas Aquinas. Then, nearer to our own times: Molina, St. Robert Bellarmine, Suarez, Vasquez, Lessius, and St. Alphonsus. But they give this view as opinion, not as revealed truth, not as certain conclusion. In the last century the contrary opinion, namely, of the greater number of the elect, was defended… Restricting the question to Catholics, we find the doctrine, generally held especially since Suarez, that, if we consider merely adults, the number of the elect surpasses that of the reprobate. If adult Catholics do at one time or another sin mortally, nevertheless they can arise in the tribunal of penance, and there are relatively few who at the end of life do not repent, or even refuse to receive the sacraments.” (Part 5, Chapter 32-The Number of the Elect)



    This is what LoT and SJB consider an eminent theologian and their mentor -  I now have a better idea why LoT and SJB are so screwed up in their thinking.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #102 on: January 08, 2014, 11:41:13 AM »
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  • Could it be as Ladislaus  said; that SJB is a BOD troll? Look at his posting history,  hundreds of one sentence postings with no content.

    I'd suggest that one be careful not to loose too much time responding to his postings, and instead take the lead and post informative educational material of your choosing. Let him follow, and ignore his static, or use it as an opportunity to post good material, however, always taking the lead.

    For me, he rarely says anything of value, it's not worth my time sifting through his inane static to find something once in a while. I just put him on HIDE. Same goes for Lover of Truth, except he is the opposite of SJB in that he posts volumes! Out of sight is out of mind.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #103 on: January 08, 2014, 11:51:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Could it be as Ladislaus  said; that SJB is a BOD troll? Look at his posting history,  hundreds of one sentence postings with no content.

    I'd suggest that one be careful not to loose too much time responding to his postings, and instead take the lead and post informative educational material of your choosing. Let him follow, and ignore his static, or use it as an opportunity to post good material, however, always taking the lead.

    For me, he rarely says anything of value, it's not worth my time sifting through his inane static to find something once in a while. I just put him on HIDE. Same goes for Lover of Truth, except he is the opposite of SJB in that he posts volumes! Out of sight is out of mind.


    Certainly he is a troll, but one we all can learn from - -if we learn not to be as ignorant as him, we've learned something from him. So in that aspect, it is a good thing that he posts here.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #104 on: January 08, 2014, 12:32:09 PM »
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  • Do you reject ALL the theological manuals of the 19th and 20th centuries in favor of an individual's reading of the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent?

    Can you name ONE orthodox manualist? ONE orthodox theologian?

    You idiots can't even answer these simple questions. You do reject them in favor of your own ideas. Maybe you don't have the Faith ... or at least any Catholic sense.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil