Author Topic: No Salvation Outside the Church (Read 11035 times)

andysloan · « **Reply #30 on:** January 07, 2014, 06:01:53 AM »

That there is No salvation Outside the Church is defined dogma and cannot be disputed.

That a Baptism of desire is possible and effective is clear in the example of the good thief:

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

The receipt of the truths of the Catholic faith, follows commensurately with correspondence to grace in the interior will, such that it is subject to God and His laws.

John 7:16-17

"Jesus answered them, and said: My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man do the will of him; he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Thus also does St Thomas state:

"In all who are in a state of grace, there must needs be rectitude of the will, since grace prepares man's will for good, according to Augustine (Contra Julian. Pelag. iv, 3). Now the will cannot be rightly directed to good, unless there be already some knowledge of the truth, since the object of the will is good understood, as stated in De Anima iii, 7. Again, just as the Holy Ghost directs man's will by the gift of charity, so as to move it directly to some supernatural good; so also, by the gift of understanding, He enlightens the human mind, so that it knows some supernatural truth, to which the right will needs to tend."

On the Gift of Understanding

Therefore, the good thief, after initially rejecting Christ (Matt 27:44) was converted during his crucifixion and was enlightened in mind to belief in Christ:

Luke 23:42

"And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom."

1 Corinthians 12:3

"And no man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost."

Therefore, if his understanding knew not all the doctrines of the Catholic faith, he had implicit acceptance through what we might call "mother truths", because God has so ordered that some doctrine is taught directly by the Holy Ghost and some by the Church/preachers.

1 Corinthians 2:13

"Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit"

Hebrews 6:1-2

"Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands..."

Thus failure of consent to Catholic doctrine by heretics and in its cause, is seen as follows:

1 Timothy 6:3-5

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to that doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions, Conflicts of men corrupted in mind, and who are destitute of the truth,"

Thus the good thief was saved because full consent in the will to God's will commensurates with full consent to Catholic doctrine.

Why providence gives some to be saved through a baptism of desire rather than through the orthodox channel of the church is a mystery of predestination, but is some wise ordering of our God of Whom it is written:

1 Timothy 2:4

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #31 on:** January 07, 2014, 06:42:41 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

"Tough luck dude when you invent strawmen and condemn yourself with them."

I did not say that you taught you don't need supernatural faith or the need to be in sanctifying grace to be saved. I was not erecting a strawman. It is clear you did not understand why I made that post. I considered your post to be blasphemous. It is better to avoid mockery when discussing sacred things. I know you say that you need to have supernatural faith to be saved, though you believe you can have that faith without being a believing Catholic. Similarly you have claimed that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation while also believing that people can be saved without baptism and I also know that you add words to at least one of the sacred dogmas to give it a different meaning more pleasing to your ears and believe your own new Lover of Truth dogma instead of the dogma of the catholic Church.

Can you say why you wrote the post and what the intended meaning of it is rather than making false accusations in bad faith?

What was the purpose of your post? It seemed to merely be contradicting my point that the ignorant, malformed and or bad-willed are unable to make basic distinctions that prevent one from twisting dogma to their own condemnation by claiming a Catechumen goes to Hell because he did not get sacramentally baptized through no fault of his own.

Your problem is not with me but with the Catholic Church and ultimately God. I pray that the scales fall from your eyes or that you gain sense enough to stop foisting your errors on others. Ignorance is one thing, manifesting it all over the place is another.

Stubborn · « **Reply #32 on:** January 07, 2014, 07:02:49 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Matto
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

"Tough luck dude when you invent strawmen and condemn yourself with them."

I did not say that you taught you don't need supernatural faith or the need to be in sanctifying grace to be saved. I was not erecting a strawman. It is clear you did not understand why I made that post. I considered your post to be blasphemous. It is better to avoid mockery when discussing sacred things. I know you say that you need to have supernatural faith to be saved, though you believe you can have that faith without being a believing Catholic. Similarly you have claimed that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation while also believing that people can be saved without baptism and I also know that you add words to at least one of the sacred dogmas to give it a different meaning more pleasing to your ears and believe your own new Lover of Truth dogma instead of the dogma of the catholic Church.

Can you say why you wrote the post and what the intended meaning of it is rather than making false accusations in bad faith?

What was the purpose of your post? It seemed to merely be contradicting my point that the ignorant, malformed and or bad-willed are unable to make basic distinctions that prevent one from twisting dogma to their own condemnation by claiming a Catechumen goes to Hell because he did not get sacramentally baptized through no fault of his own.

Your problem is not with me but with the Catholic Church and ultimately God. I pray that the scales fall from your eyes or that you gain sense enough to stop foisting your errors on others. Ignorance is one thing, manifesting it all over the place is another.

You must have been one of them educated Novus Ordoites earlier in life because you still speak and write as one.

Don't you think you should take a vow of silence and refrain from all speaking and writing - except for confession that is.............but wait, you don't need to speak even then since you believe there is a confession of desire! What was I thinking.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #33 on:** January 07, 2014, 07:13:19 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

"Tough luck dude when you invent strawmen and condemn yourself with them."

I did not say that you taught you don't need supernatural faith or the need to be in sanctifying grace to be saved. I was not erecting a strawman. It is clear you did not understand why I made that post. I considered your post to be blasphemous. It is better to avoid mockery when discussing sacred things. I know you say that you need to have supernatural faith to be saved, though you believe you can have that faith without being a believing Catholic. Similarly you have claimed that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation while also believing that people can be saved without baptism and I also know that you add words to at least one of the sacred dogmas to give it a different meaning more pleasing to your ears and believe your own new Lover of Truth dogma instead of the dogma of the catholic Church.

Can you say why you wrote the post and what the intended meaning of it is rather than making false accusations in bad faith?

What was the purpose of your post? It seemed to merely be contradicting my point that the ignorant, malformed and or bad-willed are unable to make basic distinctions that prevent one from twisting dogma to their own condemnation by claiming a Catechumen goes to Hell because he did not get sacramentally baptized through no fault of his own.

Your problem is not with me but with the Catholic Church and ultimately God. I pray that the scales fall from your eyes or that you gain sense enough to stop foisting your errors on others. Ignorance is one thing, manifesting it all over the place is another.

You must have been one of them educated Novus Ordoites earlier in life because you still speak and write as one.

Don't you think you should take a vow of silence and refrain from all speaking and writing - except for confession that is.............but wait, you don't need to speak even then since you believe there is a confession of desire! What was I thinking.

Does the above blabbering refute the Catholic teaching that one can be saved by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost apart from water Mr. Palm Face? If so I must of missed it.

Stubborn · « **Reply #34 on:** January 07, 2014, 08:40:21 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Does the above blabbering refute the Catholic teaching that one can be saved by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost apart from water Mr. Palm Face? If so I must of missed it.

Well Mr. edumacted Novus Ordoite, learn the truth of the matter, the truth being that "the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one", iow, they are inseparable. Because they are one, "ya can't have one without the other".

Always remember that the three are inseparable. I know you cannot grasp that reality but that is why one cannot be saved by the spirit (a BOD i.e. faith alone) apart from water.

Both a BOD and a BOB are missing a key ingredient, water. OTOH, Water, without the desire to be baptized, is missing the spirit and the blood.

Since you've indoctrinated yourself into a position that leads you to despise the sacraments, to the point of it being like an obsession with you to trivialize them, sadly, I don't think you'll get the clue even when explained simple enough for a child to understand, but there it is. And it didn't take a theological essay to 'splain.

When are you going to take your own advice and refrain from speaking and writing?

SJB · « **Reply #35 on:** January 07, 2014, 08:56:54 AM »

Quote from: bowler

The HIDE option on CI is also an excellent tool, specially for a person like SJB, who never says anything worth hearing.

You seem to be responding to me anyway, don't you follow your own advice?

I'm sure the thing that bothers you is my requirement that you actually support what you are claiming. I don't know why you believe long unsupported arguments need long responses. They don't.

andysloan · « **Reply #36 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:02:56 AM »

To Stubborn:

If the Spirit, Water and Blood are one, then through either, you have all all three.

Even as follows:

1 John 2:23

He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

1 John 5:7

"And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one."

bowler · « **Reply #37 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:16:17 AM »

Quote from: andysloan

That there is No salvation Outside the Church is defined dogma and cannot be disputed.

That a Baptism of desire is possible and effective is clear in the example of

What is this supernatural faith that saves without the sacrament of baptism composed of, a belief in what?

andysloan · « **Reply #38 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:30:47 AM »

To Bowler

It is understood that baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore, as I reasoned earlier, the good thief received the sacrament of baptism by desire or else how could Our Lord state:

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

Otherwise, you must explain how the good thief attained to salvation without water baptism.

bowler · « **Reply #39 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:32:30 AM »

I didn't see your answer LOV:

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

So, you wrote this long article to tell us that sanctifying grace, God's grace teaching us EVERYTHING and at least the minimum truth we need to know to have supernatural faith, does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity, nor even an explicit desire to be a Catholic? In other words, you are saying that supernatural faith does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity.

I repeat: No Father, Doctor, Saint, nor the Council of Trent taught that, and it is opposed to the Athanasian Creed and all of tradition.

bowler · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:37:23 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: andysloan
That there is No salvation Outside the Church is defined dogma and cannot be disputed.

That a Baptism of desire is possible and effective is clear in the example of

What is this supernatural faith that saves without the sacrament of baptism composed of, a belief in what?

Quote from: andysloan

To Bowler

It is understood that baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore, as I reasoned earlier, the good thief received the sacrament of baptism by desire or else how could Our Lord state:

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

Otherwise, you must explain how the good thief attained to salvation without water baptism.

The Good Thief received salvation the same way as Adam and Eve, who also were not baptized, and he ended up in the same place as Adam and Eve after he died.

Now answer my question: What is this supernatural faith that saves people TODAY without the sacrament of baptism composed of, a belief in what?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #41 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:42:22 AM »

Quote from: bowler

I didn't see your answer LOV:

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

So, you wrote this long article to tell us that sanctifying grace, God's grace teaching us EVERYTHING and at least the minimum truth we need to know to have supernatural faith, does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity, nor even an explicit desire to be a Catholic? In other words, you are saying that supernatural faith does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity.

I repeat: No Father, Doctor, Saint, nor the Council of Trent taught that, and it is opposed to the Athanasian Creed and all of tradition.

I've answered the question several times. I am not going to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result with you bowler.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #42 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:45:21 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Does the above blabbering refute the Catholic teaching that one can be saved by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost apart from water Mr. Palm Face? If so I must of missed it.

Well Mr. edumacted Novus Ordoite, learn the truth of the matter, the truth being that "the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one", iow, they are inseparable. Because they are one, "ya can't have one without the other".

Always remember that the three are inseparable. I know you cannot grasp that reality but that is why one cannot be saved by the spirit (a BOD i.e. faith alone) apart from water.

Both a BOD and a BOB are missing a key ingredient, water. OTOH, Water, without the desire to be baptized, is missing the spirit and the blood.

Since you've indoctrinated yourself into a position that leads you to despise the sacraments, to the point of it being like an obsession with you to trivialize them, sadly, I don't think you'll get the clue even when explained simple enough for a child to understand, but there it is. And it didn't take a theological essay to 'splain.

When are you going to take your own advice and refrain from speaking and writing?

This is an example as to why I generally do not even glance at posts from Stubborn or Bowler. The posts from me on the topic are for the intellectually honest who want clarification on the Church's teaching in regards to her necessity for salvation, as a reminder to what they already know, to reinforce and to teach but not for those who by all appearance sake appear to be swine that should not have pearls caste before them.

I will go on record and make it perfectly clear that I am not really interested in anything Stubborn or Bowler have to say. They do not even bring up good objections to refute but blather and blabber and undermine and distort Catholic teaching.

bowler · « **Reply #43 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:46:58 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: bowler
I didn't see your answer LOV:

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Was I teaching somewhere that you don't need supernatural faith and to be in a state of sanctifying grace in order for salvation to be possible?

So, you wrote this long article to tell us that sanctifying grace, God's grace teaching us EVERYTHING and at least the minimum truth we need to know to have supernatural faith, does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity, nor even an explicit desire to be a Catholic? In other words, you are saying that supernatural faith does not include an explicit belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity.

I repeat: No Father, Doctor, Saint, nor the Council of Trent taught that, and it is opposed to the Athanasian Creed and all of tradition.

I've answered the question several times. I am not going to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result with you bowler.

OK, Ambrose and Lover of Truth, if St. Alphonsus is correct in his teaching that explicit baptism of desire is defide teaching in the Council of Trent (which you keep repeating ad-nauseum), then it is infallible, and a heresy to deny. Therefore, you are a heretic for believing that someone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be baptized, nor belief in the Mysteries of the Holy Trinity, and Christ and His Church. No?

No?

andysloan · « **Reply #44 on:** January 07, 2014, 09:47:33 AM »

Bowler stated:

The Good Thief received salvation the same way as Adam and Eve,

The corollary of this is that baptism is not necessary for salvation, which refutes dogma. Christ said that the good thief would with be WITH HIM in paradise. Therefore, he must have received the effect of baptism through desire, being unable to receive it through water.

The question you pose about "supernatural faith without baptism", I assume is a reference to BOD and BOB. This has already been dealt with.