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Author Topic: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1  (Read 3540 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
« on: July 16, 2023, 05:56:31 PM »
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    • I just wanted to set the record straight.  There was some question in an earlier thread about BOB or BOD appearing in the Baltimore Catechism # 1.  I have uploaded a few pics from the TAN reprint, and there is no mention. 















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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #1 on: July 16, 2023, 08:49:12 PM »
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    • Isn't this the really small one that's got a lot cut out of it?  Someone here did post some early versions of the Baltimore Catechism (1885 and subsequent Bishop Spalding abridgement) that made no reference to BoD/BoB.
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #2 on: July 16, 2023, 08:59:27 PM »
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    • For everyone's information, the Baltimore Catechism is available in four editions, TAN Books offers all four.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 has 33 lessons and is typically used for 2nd (First Communion) through 5th grade.
    Baltimore Catechism #2 has 37 lessons and is typically used for 6th through 9th grade, including those preparing for Confirmation.
    Baltimore Catechism #3 has 37 lessons and is intended for those who have been Confirmed and/or are in high school or older.
    #4, An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, is often used as a "teacher's manual" for those teaching catechism, and as a reference work.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 is a more basic, simplified version of the original catechism.  Both my copy of #3 (Confraternity Edition published by Benziger Brothers) and #2 (available on the CMRI website), in Question 321, teach Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #3 on: July 16, 2023, 09:00:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on July 16, 2023, 08:59:27 PM
    For everyone's information, the Baltimore Catechism is available in four editions, TAN Books offers all four.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 has 33 lessons and is typically used for 2nd (First Communion) through 5th grade.
    Baltimore Catechism #2 has 37 lessons and is typically used for 6th through 9th grade, including those preparing for Confirmation.
    Baltimore Catechism #3 has 37 lessons and is intended for those who have been Confirmed and/or are in high school or older.
    #4, An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, is often used as a "teacher's manual" for those teaching catechism, and as a reference work.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 is a more basic, simplified version of the original catechism.  Both my copy of #3 (Confraternity Edition published by Benziger Brothers) and #2 (available on the CMRI website), in Question 321, teach Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire.

    These are based on the 1940s revision.
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #4 on: July 16, 2023, 09:15:16 PM »
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    • Quote
    These are based on the 1940s revision.

    I'm not certain how this is relevant, unless one can demonstrate that Questions 321 - 323 were added to the 1885 edition and not part of the original complete edition.


    I have another catechism titled A Catechism of the Catholic Religion, translated from the German of Rev. Joesph Deharbe, S.J. and published by The Catholic Publication Society in 1878.  The Imprimatur is from John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York.

    Its Question Number 549 reads:

    Quote
    Can nothing supply the place of Baptism by water?
    When Baptism by water cannot be had it may be replaced by the Baptism of desire or by the Baptism of blood.




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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #5 on: July 16, 2023, 09:36:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on July 16, 2023, 09:15:16 PM
    I'm not certain how this is relevant, unless one can demonstrate that Questions 321 - 323 were added to the 1885 edition and not part of the original complete edition.

    That's precisely my point.  Someone produced a copy of the 1885 edition that didn't have BoB/BoD in it.

    But, in a sense, you're right, it doesn't matter.  Some Catechisms before Vatican I rejected papal infallibility also.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #6 on: July 16, 2023, 10:41:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on July 16, 2023, 09:15:16 PM
    Can nothing supply the place of Baptism by water?
    When Baptism by water cannot be had it may be replaced by the Baptism of desire or by the Baptism of blood.
    A very problematic statement as the sacrament is necessary for salvation. And the matter is pure and natural water.

    Blood and desire are not sacraments. So they cannot replace water baptism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #7 on: July 16, 2023, 11:14:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on July 16, 2023, 10:41:19 PM
    A very problematic statement as the sacrament is necessary for salvation. And the matter is pure and natural water.

    Blood and desire are not sacraments. So they cannot replace water baptism.

    Indeed, very poorly worded.  Should read something along the lines of, "When Baptism cannot be received by water, it can be received through desire or blood."  There's only one Baptism, and it cannot be replaced, and if one believes in BoD/BoB, they must be considered different modes or means of receiving the one Baptism.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #8 on: July 16, 2023, 11:37:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on July 16, 2023, 08:59:27 PM
    For everyone's information, the Baltimore Catechism is available in four editions, TAN Books offers all four.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 has 33 lessons and is typically used for 2nd (First Communion) through 5th grade.
    Baltimore Catechism #2 has 37 lessons and is typically used for 6th through 9th grade, including those preparing for Confirmation.
    Baltimore Catechism #3 has 37 lessons and is intended for those who have been Confirmed and/or are in high school or older.
    #4, An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, is often used as a "teacher's manual" for those teaching catechism, and as a reference work.

    Baltimore Catechism #1 is a more basic, simplified version of the original catechism.  Both my copy of #3 (Confraternity Edition published by Benziger Brothers) and #2 (available on the CMRI website), in Question 321, teach Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire.

    My one criticism of the BC is that it is really, really scanty on moral theology, and doesn't do any kind of "deep dive" into various kinds of sins, it just speaks in broad generalities.  We've used BC2 and BC3 (just completed the latter) in homeschool religion class, and I've had to supplement it with an enumeration of various sins (especially ones against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments).   Any youngster needs to know what kinds of sins there are, so as not to fall into bad habits unknowingly ("I didn't realize that was a sin").  You can't avoid a sin if you don't know what it is.

    I got the BC4 to use a kind of advanced text, but I've been disappointed in it, for the same reasons.  I got the Fr Laux books (Books 1/2/3) instead.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #9 on: July 17, 2023, 04:26:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on July 16, 2023, 09:15:16 PM
    I'm not certain how this is relevant, unless one can demonstrate that Questions 321 - 323 were added to the 1885 edition and not part of the original complete edition.


    I have another catechism titled A Catechism of the Catholic Religion, translated from the German of Rev. Joesph Deharbe, S.J. and published by The Catholic Publication Society in 1878.  The Imprimatur is from John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York.

    Its Question Number 549 reads:
    Here is a news paper article from 1949. Although it does not go into much detail, the article states the new catechism now teaches that those outside the Church can now be saved.

    This simply demonstrates that the catechism is a text book, like any other text book, in the sense that it's authors can put in it whatever they want and revise it as often as they want to teach whatever they want.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #10 on: July 17, 2023, 06:15:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 17, 2023, 04:26:51 AM
    Here is a news paper article from 1949. Although it does not go into much detail, the article states the new catechism now teaches that those outside the Church can now be saved.

    This simply demonstrates that the catechism is a text book, like any other text book, in the sense that it's authors can put in it whatever they want and revise it as often as they want to teach whatever they want.

    What a terrible article, claiming that the Church basically says now that those outside the Church can be saved ... verbatim contradicting Catholic dogma.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #11 on: July 17, 2023, 06:21:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on July 16, 2023, 11:37:25 PM
    My one criticism of the BC is that it is really, really scanty on moral theology, and doesn't do any kind of "deep dive" into various kinds of sins, it just speaks in broad generalities.  We've used BC2 and BC3 (just completed the latter) in homeschool religion class, and I've had to supplement it with an enumeration of various sins (especially ones against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments).  Any youngster needs to know what kinds of sins there are, so as not to fall into bad habits unknowingly ("I didn't realize that was a sin").  You can't avoid a sin if you don't know what it is.

    I got the BC4 to use a kind of advanced text, but I've been disappointed in it, for the same reasons.  I got the Fr Laux books (Books 1/2/3) instead.

    I've never liked Baltimore Catechism ... for a variety of reasons.  I even dislike one of the opening questions/answers, to the effect that God made me "in order to know Him, love Him, and serve Him."  It just gives the impression that God made a bunch of slaves to serve Him.  Fact is that God has no need of us whatsoever, either to be loved or to be served.  He made us out of absolutely pure generosity because He wanted us to share Himself with us.  That part is alluded to in the second part, but the way it's worded makes it sound like God made us out of self-interest somehow, so He could be loved and served, and then would give us eternal happiness as a reward for said servitude.  Just sounds really off to me and can give a bad impression.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #12 on: July 17, 2023, 12:14:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 17, 2023, 06:21:42 AM
    I've never liked Baltimore Catechism ... for a variety of reasons.  I even dislike one of the opening questions/answers, to the effect that God made me "in order to know Him, love Him, and serve Him."  It just gives the impression that God made a bunch of slaves to serve Him.  Fact is that God has no need of us whatsoever, either to be loved or to be served.  He made us out of absolutely pure generosity because He wanted us to share Himself with us.  That part is alluded to in the second part, but the way it's worded makes it sound like God made us out of self-interest somehow, so He could be loved and served, and then would give us eternal happiness as a reward for said servitude.  Just sounds really off to me and can give a bad impression.
    I don't think the BC was ever intended to be in-depth, high-concept theology, rather, it was meant simply to be a "nuts-and-bolts" compendium of essential Catholic doctrine, something that lent itself, according to the pedagogical methods of that time, to rote memorization.  I never had my son to memorize it, as that simply wouldn't work with him, and besides, I want him to be able to think, not just memorize.  I have to imagine that it was intended to be a kind of "Swiss Army Knife" of Catholic doctrine, to preserve Catholic youths in the United States from the errors of Protestantism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ that were swirling all around them (and still do).

    I don't have an issue with the concept being presented up front, of men being created to know, love, and serve God.  I don't come away with the idea that this makes us into mere slaves, rather, it reminds us of the whole reason for our existence, our final end, and how we are to think and act, so as to know the right relationship between God and us.

    Actually, even though it's admittedly kind of puerile, I found the Father Bennet edition (we used BC#2) to be very useful as a teaching tool.  The artwork of 1950s white children looking like extras from Leave It To Beaver has a kind of Jack Chick feel to it, but add to that, the visuals work to make abstract concepts into something more relatable to a young person.  A picture will stick on one's mind long after the rote memorization is forgotten:






    You would never find a benign reference to an air rifle in any catechism nowadays!
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: No BOB or BOD in Baltimore Catechism #1
    « Reply #13 on: July 17, 2023, 03:37:33 PM »
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    • Thank You Stubborn, what an eye opener!
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