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Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints  (Read 8931 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2023, 11:17:08 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 11:15:30 AM
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I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation.
But if she needed purification? Does purification have a strict definition? I.e purgatory only is purification? Or does baptism fall into it as well similar to it being a rebirth?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2023, 11:19:36 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 13, 2023, 04:15:41 PM
My problem is, the souls of the Just in Limbo only ascended into heaven with their souls, not their bodies; meaning that their souls were united to their bodies for a time immediately after the Resurrection - and only a human person can receive baptism, not a soul divorced from its body - and then these (holy people) were baptized, but then only their souls ascended into heaven.  This is all to say that the holy souls are all in heaven, but their holy bodies must be somewhere on earth, awaiting the General Resurrection.  It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother. 

Not even the great St. Joseph is in heaven body and soul. It is my private opinion that the body of St. Joseph will be discovered during the reign of the antichrist, or immediately preceding the reign of Mary.  Hopefully this makes sense and I have not spoken in error, but this is Catholic theology as I have understood it.  Very interesting video though. Thanks

I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection.  We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection.  Presumably they all died again.

But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul.  Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2023, 11:21:53 AM »
While NCR is generally a Modernist rag, this is a good article about St. Joseph being assumed into Heaven:
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/was-st-joseph-assumed-into-heaven-here-s-what-the-saints-say

Quote
“St. Joseph, then, is in heaven in body and soul,” wrote St. Francis de Sales. “There is no doubt of it.”

I agree.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2023, 11:24:27 AM »
Benedictus Deus says those who are pure enough to enter Heaven immediately do so, while those who die in sin go immediately to Hell; it distinguishes between these types and those who require additional purification.

Hence, it might allow for someone who would otherwise require purgatorial fire to instead be sent back to earth. But that would mean the person was already justified, rather than reprobate. If they were reprobate, they would just immediately go to Hell. If they require further purification that means they're justified, just not justified enough. And they would be counted among the blessed no matter how their additional purification was experienced. 

Do we wish to argue that anyone who dies justified having not received water baptism is purified by water baptism after death but before entering Heaven? I suppose we could, but that sounds just like "regular" BOD, just with an extra step. 
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2023, 11:43:05 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 11:19:36 AM
I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection.  We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection.  Presumably they all died again.

But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul.  Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.
That is correct, it is not dogma that only Our Lady and Our Lord are in heaven body and soul.  I should have made it clear in my previous post.  I read a book based on the writings of four credible mystics from which I received that opinion.  It could be that Enoch and Elias are in heaven, either way it does not matter to me.  I know one of the fathers wrote that both Enoch and Elias will be consecrated bishops, so necessarily they will be baptized when the time comes.  Yes, I have contemplated St. Joseph in the same vein, but I often wonder if St. Joseph will not be baptized on the Last Day along with many others.  The sacrament of baptism ends when time ends, and that would seemingly happen when the Last Day comes to a close and eternity begins. 

Thanks Lad for the St. Joseph article, I will give it a read.  I have never seen this St. Francis de Sales quote, I am interested to read the article. 
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