Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints (Read 4789 times)

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2023, 11:17:08 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 11:15:30 AM

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I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation.

But if she needed purification? Does purification have a strict definition? I.e purgatory only is purification? Or does baptism fall into it as well similar to it being a rebirth?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2023, 11:19:36 AM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 13, 2023, 04:15:41 PM

My problem is, the souls of the Just in Limbo only ascended into heaven with their souls, not their bodies; meaning that their souls were united to their bodies for a time immediately after the Resurrection - and only a human person can receive baptism, not a soul divorced from its body - and then these (holy people) were baptized, but then only their souls ascended into heaven. This is all to say that the holy souls are all in heaven, but their holy bodies must be somewhere on earth, awaiting the General Resurrection. It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother.

Not even the great St. Joseph is in heaven body and soul. It is my private opinion that the body of St. Joseph will be discovered during the reign of the antichrist, or immediately preceding the reign of Mary. Hopefully this makes sense and I have not spoken in error, but this is Catholic theology as I have understood it. Very interesting video though. Thanks

I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection. We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection. Presumably they all died again.

But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul. Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2023, 11:21:53 AM »

While NCR is generally a Modernist rag, this is a good article about St. Joseph being assumed into Heaven:
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/was-st-joseph-assumed-into-heaven-here-s-what-the-saints-say

Quote

“St. Joseph, then, is in heaven in body and soul,” wrote St. Francis de Sales. “There is no doubt of it.”

I agree.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2023, 11:24:27 AM »

Benedictus Deus says those who are pure enough to enter Heaven immediately do so, while those who die in sin go immediately to Hell; it distinguishes between these types and those who require additional purification.

Hence, it might allow for someone who would otherwise require purgatorial fire to instead be sent back to earth. But that would mean the person was already justified, rather than reprobate. If they were reprobate, they would just immediately go to Hell. If they require further purification that means they're justified, just not justified enough. And they would be counted among the blessed no matter how their additional purification was experienced.

Do we wish to argue that anyone who dies justified having not received water baptism is purified by water baptism after death but before entering Heaven? I suppose we could, but that sounds just like "regular" BOD, just with an extra step.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2023, 11:43:05 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 11:19:36 AM

I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection. We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection. Presumably they all died again.

But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul. Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.

That is correct, it is not dogma that only Our Lady and Our Lord are in heaven body and soul. I should have made it clear in my previous post. I read a book based on the writings of four credible mystics from which I received that opinion. It could be that Enoch and Elias are in heaven, either way it does not matter to me. I know one of the fathers wrote that both Enoch and Elias will be consecrated bishops, so necessarily they will be baptized when the time comes. Yes, I have contemplated St. Joseph in the same vein, but I often wonder if St. Joseph will not be baptized on the Last Day along with many others. The sacrament of baptism ends when time ends, and that would seemingly happen when the Last Day comes to a close and eternity begins.

Thanks Lad for the St. Joseph article, I will give it a read. I have never seen this St. Francis de Sales quote, I am interested to read the article.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2023, 12:27:37 PM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 14, 2023, 11:43:05 AM

Thanks Lad for the St. Joseph article, I will give it a read. I have never seen this St. Francis de Sales quote, I am interested to read the article.

Apart from the theological reasons adduced by these saints who held this, I find it extremely telling that we have no 1st Class Relics of St. Joseph anywhere.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2023, 12:31:36 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 12:27:37 PM

Apart from the theological reasons adduced by these saints who held this, I find it extremely telling that we have no 1st Class Relics of St. Joseph anywhere.

Yes, I agree, the absence of relics does suggest these saintly theories correct. But if I recall we have no 1st Class relics of St. John the Beloved either. Of course it could be that St. John is in heaven body and soul as well as St. Joseph. My theory is that since Mary is the mother of the Mystical Body of Christ, she was the first baptized; since St. Joseph is the father of the Mystical Body of Christ, he will be the last baptized. I base this only upon my "feelings," and Bp. Williamson would call me out on it!

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #22 on:** June 15, 2023, 10:19:52 AM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 14, 2023, 12:31:36 PM

Yes, I agree, the absence of relics does suggest these saintly theories correct. But if I recall we have no 1st Class relics of St. John the Beloved either. Of course it could be that St. John is in heaven body and soul as well as St. Joseph. My theory is that since Mary is the mother of the Mystical Body of Christ, she was the first baptized; since St. Joseph is the father of the Mystical Body of Christ, he will be the last baptized. I base this only upon my "feelings," and Bp. Williamson would call me out on it!

Bp. Williamson also succuмbs to his feelings contrary to reason at times. Such as when he said Wojtyla and Ratzinger are "sincere" and "good persons." Two of the most evil men to ever walk the earth.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #23 on:** June 15, 2023, 11:34:28 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM

In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm

Hi, Mith. I agree with you if the Latin equivalent of "with no delay" or "immediately," which is the word used in the English translation, appeared in the Latin text. However, I checked my copy of BD in my later edition of Denzinger which has the Latin text (picture attached), and the operative word in Latin seems to be "mox."

I'm no Latinist by any means - I can only pray the Rosary in it and have some knowledge from the Missal and my interlinear DR/Vulgate New Testament - but when I checked available Latin dictionaries it seems that "mox" can mean merely "soon" or "shortly thereafter," and not necessarily "with no delay" or "immediately."

Perhaps Lad or someone who knows Latin can comment.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #24 on:** June 15, 2023, 01:11:04 PM »

My opinion is St Joesph ascended into heaven. Enoch and Elias aren’t dead so they are somewhere on earth (some say the Garden of Eden) to await the End Times.

St John the Apostle is also not dead (his body is not in the tomb at Ephesus). The apparition at Knock shows St John in Bishop’s attire and preaching, while holding an open book (probably the apocalypse). So he will also come back in the End Times. And he may also be in Eden.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** June 15, 2023, 03:18:09 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on June 15, 2023, 11:34:28 AM

Hi, Mith. I agree with you if the Latin equivalent of "with no delay" or "immediately," which is the word used in the English translation, appeared in the Latin text. However, I checked my copy of BD in my later edition of Denzinger which has the Latin text (picture attached), and the operative word in Latin seems to be "mox."

I'm no Latinist by any means - I can only pray the Rosary in it and have some knowledge from the Missal and my interlinear DR/Vulgate New Testament - but when I checked available Latin dictionaries it seems that "mox" can mean merely "soon" or "shortly thereafter," and not necessarily "with no delay" or "immediately."

Perhaps Lad or someone who knows Latin can comment.

Yes, "mox" means "soon", but I think the context makes it clear that he means, basically right away, perhaps after their particular judgment, etc. In the passage about those who are saved, he distinguishes between those who have no sin left and those who requires some purgation, using the term "mox" of the former, so I think that immediately or right away would be a good translation. It has the sense of "the next step for them is ...".

DecemRationis · « **Reply #26 on:** June 15, 2023, 05:23:48 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 15, 2023, 03:18:09 PM

Yes, "mox" means "soon", but I think the context makes it clear that he means, basically right away, perhaps after their particular judgment, etc. In the passage about those who are saved, he distinguishes between those who have no sin left and those who requires some purgation, using the term "mox" of the former, so I think that immediately or right away would be a good translation. It has the sense of "the next step for them is ...".

Thanks.

Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints (Read 4789 times)

AnthonyPadua

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints

Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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Mithrandylan

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OABrownson1876

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Ladislaus

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OABrownson1876

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Marulus Fidelis

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DecemRationis

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Pax Vobis

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Ladislaus

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DecemRationis

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints