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Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints  (Read 4794 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« on: June 11, 2023, 09:29:18 PM »
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  • Despite the controversy this group has, I still like to consider the points they present. Plus this idea that the old testament saints could have been baptised is not new to me.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #1 on: June 11, 2023, 09:32:00 PM »
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  • Very solid video.  I've been pointing this out for years, but they bring a lot of evidence to back it up.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2023, 04:15:41 PM »
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  • My problem is, the souls of the Just in Limbo only ascended into heaven with their souls, not their bodies; meaning that their souls were united to their bodies for a time immediately after the Resurrection - and only a human person can receive baptism, not a soul divorced from its body - and then these (holy people) were baptized, but then only their souls ascended into heaven.  This is all to say that the holy souls are all in heaven, but their holy bodies must be somewhere on earth, awaiting the General Resurrection.  It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother. 

    Not even the great St. Joseph is in heaven body and soul. It is my private opinion that the body of St. Joseph will be discovered during the reign of the antichrist, or immediately preceding the reign of Mary.  Hopefully this makes sense and I have not spoken in error, but this is Catholic theology as I have understood it.   Very interesting video though. Thanks
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #3 on: June 13, 2023, 04:26:54 PM »
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  • According to Jone, section 460, "The recipient of a Sacrament must be in the wayfaring state..." [emphasis original]

    The wayfaring state is a rather odd way of saying someone must be alive, i.e., in the state of a traveler in this world.

    Offline moneil

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2023, 09:11:23 AM »
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  • It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother. 
    Elias (Elijah) the prophet was taken up to heaven: 4 Kings 2:1-11.   Elias then appeared bodily next to Our Lord at the Transfiguration: St. Matthew 17:2-3.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM »
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  • In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death. 

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2023, 11:06:08 AM »
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  • In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
    Not exactly
    Quote
    immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above,
     
    since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise,
    It depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?

    Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2023, 11:07:11 AM »
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  • Elias (Elijah) the prophet was taken up to heaven: 4 Kings 2:1-11.  Elias then appeared bodily next to Our Lord at the Transfiguration: St. Matthew 17:2-3.
    But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell.  I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth.  We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2023, 11:09:42 AM »
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  • In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
    Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses). 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2023, 11:09:52 AM »
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  • But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell.  I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth.  We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance.
    But couldn't it have been destroyed in the flood?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2023, 11:11:39 AM »
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  • Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses).
    Yeah, when you can see God you can't have faith. As faith is to believe what you cannot see. And who hopes to attain what they already have?


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2023, 11:12:52 AM »
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  • In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
    But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death.   
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #12 on: June 14, 2023, 11:13:11 AM »
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  • Not exactlyIt depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?

    Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?
    .
    Very good questions. I think Benedictus Deus forbids us from saying that such are "in the wayfaring state", as Yeti/Jone put it. Most likely, I would guess God clothes their soul with a body in a similar way to how he clothed the archangel Raphael, or the angels he sent to warn Lot. In neither case is the person seen truly hylomorphic, at least not with their *own* body.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #13 on: June 14, 2023, 11:15:30 AM »
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  • But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death. 
    .
    I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
    « Reply #14 on: June 14, 2023, 11:15:46 AM »
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  • But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death. 
    Of course assuming that it's a true story, it is a person under the new law. While it's a nice piece for EENS and water baptism, it's not infallible and doesn't help too much for the old law.

    Still it's icing on the cake for me at least.