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Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints  (Read 8935 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2023, 11:11:39 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 11:09:42 AM
Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses).
Yeah, when you can see God you can't have faith. As faith is to believe what you cannot see. And who hopes to attain what they already have?
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2023, 11:12:52 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM
In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death.   
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2023, 11:13:11 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on June 14, 2023, 11:06:08 AM
Not exactlyIt depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?

Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?
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Very good questions. I think Benedictus Deus forbids us from saying that such are "in the wayfaring state", as Yeti/Jone put it. Most likely, I would guess God clothes their soul with a body in a similar way to how he clothed the archangel Raphael, or the angels he sent to warn Lot. In neither case is the person seen truly hylomorphic, at least not with their *own* body.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2023, 11:15:30 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 14, 2023, 11:12:52 AM
But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death. 
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I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation. 
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2023, 11:15:46 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 14, 2023, 11:12:52 AM
But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name).  She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism.  St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven.  So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death. 
Of course assuming that it's a true story, it is a person under the new law. While it's a nice piece for EENS and water baptism, it's not infallible and doesn't help too much for the old law.

Still it's icing on the cake for me at least.
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