Author Topic: My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism (Read 5530 times)

2Vermont · « **on:** December 06, 2013, 04:24:34 PM »

Right now my mother is healthy and for all I know has a number of years left here on Earth. She is Jєωιѕн, but has always seemed more open to the Catholic Faith than your stereotypical Jєωιѕн mother. In fact, in response to a prayer of mine years ago, I believe/she believes she had a vision of the Virgin Mary. She has also attended mass with me before. Anyway, regardless, she is not baptized and at this time doesn't want to be baptized.

What is the Church's teaching on baptizing someone against their will. I would like to think that before she dies, God will grace her with the desire to be baptized, but if she does not, can I even baptize her? For example, let's say she is not conscious at some point. Is a baptism even valid in this sort of scenario? I know we baptize babies without them knowing, but is this really the same thing?

Thanks in advance.

Memento · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2013, 04:30:49 PM »

You should not do it. She must want and request baptism.

May I suggest your continued prayers and sacrifices and also the use of blessed sacramentals. Ask her if she will pray the Rosary. Our Lady will guide her.

2Vermont · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2013, 04:47:28 PM »

Quote from: Memento

You should not do it. She must want and request baptism.

May I suggest your continued prayers and sacrifices and also the use of blessed sacramentals. Ask her if she will pray the Rosary. Our Lady will guide her.

This is what my common sense tells me, but then I think of infant baptism.

My mother's not one for regular prayer of any kind let alone the Rosary, so no, she wouldn't do that.

I keep praying for her and I ask those here to do so as well.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2013, 04:50:03 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Right now my mother is healthy and for all I know has a number of years left here on Earth. She is Jєωιѕн, but has always seemed more open to the Catholic Faith than your stereotypical Jєωιѕн mother. In fact, in response to a prayer of mine years ago, I believe/she believes she had a vision of the Virgin Mary. She has also attended mass with me before. Anyway, regardless, she is not baptized and at this time doesn't want to be baptized.

What is the Church's teaching on baptizing someone against their will. I would like to think that before she dies, God will grace her with the desire to be baptized, but if she does not, can I even baptize her? For example, let's say she is not conscious at some point. Is a baptism even valid in this sort of scenario? I know we baptize babies without them knowing, but is this really the same thing?

Thanks in advance.

Have you considered teaching her why we believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah? Perhaps if you show her some good examples the Holy Spirit might overwhelm her and she may then desire Baptism.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2013, 05:35:49 PM »

Daily prayers (particulary with your rosary intentions for her conversion), fasting, and many novenas to Our Lady.

Matto · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2013, 05:49:20 PM »

I believe that the Church teaches that adults need to desire baptism for it to have an effect and if they do not desire baptism their sins are not forgiven. But I am not positive because I am not an expert.

Cuthbert · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2013, 05:58:53 PM »

I would suggest giving her the Miraculous Medal of Our Lady & ask her to recite the Memorare every day as the friends of Alphonse Ratisbonne did.

2Vermont · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2013, 05:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I believe that the Church teaches that adults need to desire baptism for it to have an effect and if they do not desire baptism their sins are not forgiven. But I am not positive because I am not an expert.

You know it just dawned on me that the big difference between adults and infants is personal sin. With infants the only sin is original sin. Not so with adults. You're probably right.

Incredulous · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2013, 06:34:50 PM »

Positioning for the deathbed conversion.

I used to joke with my older friends that I'd knock them out and Baptize before they died.

One strategy is to call on the intercession of a patron Saint of Deathbed Conversions. Maybe it should be your back-up plan, when all else fails?

The Saint I am most familiar with for this is Blessed Anne de Guigne of France.

You can buy her biography online. It is interesting and she has a royal French bloodline.

The books gives some stories of miraculous deathbed conversions based on her intercession.

The method is to pray to her for help and bring a blessed photo of her to the person's room. If you can get them to agree to keep the photo in their home, all the better.

There are several good photos of her on Google images.

My friend did this to his stubborn protestant Mom.
She converted in the hospital about 3 days before she died.

I knew her well and I tell you, it was a miracle.

2Vermont · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2013, 06:37:33 PM »

Thanks Incredulous.....awesome. She is 81 so I'm getting more and more anxious that this is exactly what will need to happen.

Spork · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2013, 07:34:45 PM »

Definitely ask as many saints as possible who were Jєωιѕн for intercession.

Cantarella · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2013, 08:57:05 PM »

2Vermont,

Anyone can baptize. You can validly baptize your mother as long you intend to do what Christ wants done and follow the instructions. Use the proper form (words) and matter (natural water). The same person that is pouring the water must say the words. Remember that it is in your power to open the gates of Heaven for her. Do not take this slightly! If you have to wait until she is dying and unconscious, so be it!

Of course, the first thing you should do is call a priest to baptize her when she is unconscious. Given that she is not a Catholic, and if a priest is not at hand, the process to follow is to recite slowly in her ear the Act of Faith, and the Act of Perfect Contrition, and then baptize her.

1. Act of Faith
O MY GOD, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I believe that Thy Divine Son became Man, and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.

2. Act of Perfect Contrition
O MY GOD, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.

3. Baptism words while pouring the water on her forehead:
"I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

You could also say it in Latin:
" Si non es baptizatus (-a), ego te baptizo in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti"

Do not cease in praying for the conversion of your mother so she willingly accepts baptism and becomes a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2013, 10:06:29 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I believe that the Church teaches that adults need to desire baptism for it to have an effect and if they do not desire baptism their sins are not forgiven. But I am not positive because I am not an expert.

Absolutely. That is the dogmatic teaching of Trent, in the passage commonly misinterpreted as referring to Baptism of Desire.

Infants are a completely different story, and there's no analogy between baptizing an infant and baptizing an unwilling adult.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2013, 10:08:16 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matto
I believe that the Church teaches that adults need to desire baptism for it to have an effect and if they do not desire baptism their sins are not forgiven. But I am not positive because I am not an expert.

You know it just dawned on me that the big difference between adults and infants is personal sin. With infants the only sin is original sin. Not so with adults. You're probably right.

It's more than just that; in adults, the will needs to cooperate with the Sacrament. Even if you had an adult who had committed no actual sin, you shouldn't baptize them unless they were willing to receive the Sacrament.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2013, 10:13:28 PM »

Just consult a Traditional priest on the subject.

Cantarella, it's not about whether a lay person can validly baptize. Of course they can. I'm pretty sure that you cannot licitly baptize someone who falls unconscious unless before falling unconscious they had shown SOME sign of wanting to become Catholic. It could be a nod or a grunt in response to a question, but absent some sign or indication of their wanting to become Catholic, you can't just baptize someone. That would be a sacrilege against the Sacrament of Baptism.