Quote from: Ladislaus

Just consult a Traditional priest on the subject.

This probably is the correct route and I know the perfect man for the job.

I left the seminary before the Pastoral Theology part, so that's why I defer.  But the citation from Trent does in fact seem conclusive.  I thought that there was also something in Canon Law about it.

So his standard form would be the Conditional Baptism, since he can't know all the particulars, and there are so many victims to help all at once.

No, conditional Baptism isn't for that purpose.  It's for conferring the Sacrament when you are not sure about the validity of the previous one.  There's no form that I know of that says, "If you will to be baptized ..."

CathMom, if it's any consolation, well of course your mother is Baptised, so there you go. But also, she probably saw the conciliar church days and 'catholic' to her might mean "Ah, liars and child rapists". For some reason, I have faith God will understand those turned off by the so-called "catholic church" of the late WW2/Vatican 2 eras. She's Baptised; she probably has no huge mortal sins; she prays in her own way; she saw the abomination of desolation in technicolor... keep praying that she might see Heaven, of course, but I'd imagine she's in a good place right now (people praying for her, innate love of God even if she didn't have the full knowledge, etc). I find playing Litany of the Saints and explaining the Latin to people (in nursing homes) shows them how WE know the Saints are alive and can intercede. Right there's the "cloud of witnesses" that Protestants can't explain and Luther didn't desecrate out of their bibles enough. Older Prots really pick up on these things, I find. (A priest told me he'd found a new place to harvest at one of the nursing homes last year; they call out for him!)

Poor Vermont2. I'll add your parents to my prayer list as well. I'm sure it would be for them like someone telling us, "Oh, well Jesus already CAME back and this is the new heaven and new earth" (you know, the stuff Frank is trying to pass off now). Wouldn't go down so well. Okay, we'd laugh uproariously. But when our ancestors are one thing, then there's this idea that pretty much condemns (as far as you can tell) your family, some people opt to go down with the ship, doing what they taught was right, so they don't "damn" their ancestors. My Dad didn't leave the NO until relatively recently (though my parents had definitely stopped going by the 1990s), and a huge reason was how his ancestors (esp his parents/uncles/aunts) passed away during the V2 upheavals. He felt like "leaving" the V2 "church" would be leaving Church. And their cultic priests know how to answer the "trad questions" (by explaining how trads are going to Hell). It's a HARD TIME to convert anyone!

Your mom will be given every chance at Baptism, because of your works, and graces God has given you. And that she can sit at Mass is a positive sign. I personally would guess the sooner the better, so she can help your dad, but it's not as we will, but as God wills. Her conversion could have ripple effects you may never know about. (Hey, my dad inadvertently got a vascular surgeon to convert from Judaism/atheism by ...staying alive during a procedure he had very little chance of surviving, about 8 years ago now. We'd show up and pray; priests would pray; miracle! Well, I guess that's properly God using my dad to convert.) To this day, Daddy asks why he's still alive; he doesn't see everything he does, his witness, his hope, etc, for people who I'd guess otherwise wouldn't have much hope. God's using your mom for a reason. She'll be Baptised of her own free will. (Or so we'll pray, that is.) I like that green scapular idea, too.

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From page 5 (post numbers 24 and 25);

Quote from: Ladislaus

Just consult a Traditional priest on the subject.

This probably is the correct route and I know the perfect man for the job.

After you speak to the priest could you come back here and report what took place?  

Try to remember to ask him, what can we do when no one knows the wishes of the unconscious dying person?  Or what can we do when we arrive at the scene where someone has just died and nobody knows whether they were baptized or wanted to be baptized?  

I know for a fact that a priest can administer Extreme Unction up to 2 hours after someone has been pronounced clinically dead.  And that contains a conditional absolution for his sins.

Quote from: soulguard

I feel for you 2Vermont.

But have you ever thought that it might be God's justice that only those who love Him have a chance of going to heaven? My mother is also an unbeliever, and the last time I spoke to her she ridiculed the notion that there is a hell. I am the only Catholic in the family, and if she is saved it will have something to do with me, but I do not expect her to convert, for she hates the church with an unholy passion, and is entirely ignorant also, despite claiming the name "Catholic" for herself.

Actually, my father is probably more in this group, sad to say.  Whereas I think my mother has some inklings, my father is totally closed minded about religion in general.  I pray for both (Dad is 82), but Mom is just in another "place" and because of that I have more hope with her.  

Dear soulguard, that is really depressing.  

I have heard people explain that sort of situation but I have never known someone firsthand who was going through it, like this.  All I can think to say is, that you should treasure the signal grace you have of being drawn yourself to the Faith, and you should pray for your dear mother, who gave you life!  I'm no good at convincing people that they've been wrong their whole life about hell, either.  And then top it off with recent nonsense in the News Media about this or that theologian saying that hell is not a place, or that if it is real then it's empty, or that we are better off to rid ourselves of medieval superstitions.  And the recent popes do not condemn these pernicious errors, but instead they dare to PROMOTE them!

Be careful speaking to a priest about your mother "hating the Church with an unholy passion":   Not To Say you should NOT tell him, but be sure that when you do, you are holding his attention and he knows you MEAN WHAT YOU SAY, and you are not treating it lightly.  



Dear 2Vermont,

When my father was close to his final hours, I asked a good priest to help me, as to what I could do for him, since he refused to confess to the priest.  He told me that I should "whisper the Apostle's Creed in his ear," for my father had often prayed the Rosary with our family.  That seemed to do some good.  Also, when my children, his grandchildren, surrounded his deathbed and prayed the Prayers for a Dying Person found in the little PIETA prayer book (it has a blue cover with the Pieta of Michelangelo on it) my father voluntarily made the sign of the cross.  

These are things I can offer to console you, and I know, it's not much, but it's something..  At times like this, you take what you can get, even if it's very poor..  For our Lord said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit:  for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"[/b] (Matt. v. 3).


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