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Author Topic: My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism  (Read 5536 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 10:15:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    You could also say it in Latin:
    "  Si non es baptizatus (-a), ego te baptizo in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti"


    She's obviously not baptized, so you shouldn't use this conditional form.  You would skip the first part from "Si ... baptizata".  Nevertheless, if you don't have a rudimentary facility with Latin, I would just recommend English anyway lest the person botch the Latin so badly as to render the Sacrament invalid.


    Offline Cantarella

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #16 on: December 06, 2013, 10:20:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus


    It's more than just that; in adults, the will needs to cooperate with the Sacrament.  Even if you had an adult who had committed no actual sin, you shouldn't baptize them unless they were willing to receive the Sacrament.


    Catholics in frequent contact with the dying such as nurses, were encouraged to baptize the Non-Catholic dying person even if they were unconscious (think, for example the wounded in battle).  So regardless of the willingness of the person, it seems possible to baptize a Non Catholic adult right before dying.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 10:30:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus


     I'm pretty sure that you cannot licitly baptize someone who falls unconscious unless before falling unconscious they had shown SOME sign of wanting to become Catholic.  It could be a nod or a grunt in response to a question, but absent some sign or indication of their wanting to become Catholic, you can't just baptize someone.  That would be a sacrilege against the Sacrament of Baptism.


    Ladislaus,

    Can you show me a reliable resource to back this up?

    It really matters to me. I would like to have a throughout understanding of what is to be done in cases where the unconscious Non Catholic did not show any willingness to baptize right before death.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline JPaul

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 10:51:53 PM »
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  • A Baptism against someone's will would not be valid.
    Best advice is to pray for her and in her last hours try to bring a good priest to her bedside and with God's grace the proper sign might be revealed and he can assist her upon discerning that signal of her consent.

    If you are close to her she may trust in you enough at that time to open her heart to God's mercy.

    God bless you for caring about this most difficult problem. I will pray for you both and that moment of grace.

    Offline Cantarella

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #19 on: December 07, 2013, 12:32:17 AM »
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  • What about Conditional Baptism? Can this apply for the dying non Catholic who has not shown any willingness to get baptized?

    "Unless thou hast been baptized and unless thou canst not be baptized, I baptize thee in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and of the Holy Ghost".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #20 on: December 07, 2013, 03:04:10 AM »
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  • .

    The problem with baptizing someone against their will is, they could then carry the mark of remission of original sin with them into hell, where it would serve to their additional torment.  Certainly their own, personal sins would not be forgiven because they had no desire to be contrite for those sins, for they did not want baptism.  

    But if the person is unconscious, it seems to me that it might be okay to use a conditional form, in the event that they do want to be baptized.  For they might have changed their mind when they lost consciousness.  That would be, "I conditionally baptize thee (or 'you' -- insert name) in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."  You must say the words and pour the water at the same time.  Someone else can't be the one pouring the water.  The water has to run over the skin for each of the 3 divine Persons.

    But there is a responsibility here -- you would have to stick around to be sure that if the person comes to, he or she would then need to be told that they were conditionally baptized, and after you explain all that to them, then stay nearby to supply them with any answers to their questions they might have.  So it's not a light matter.  You could become responsible to teach them the Faith from that day forward.  So it's not just a game or something.  

    In this case, the "conditionally" refers to the possibility that the unconscious, dying person does want to be baptized, but didn't make that known for whatever reason.  If he (or she) did NOT want baptism, then the conditional sacrament would not be effective, most tragically.  

    Can you imagine the scandal of being that close to heaven and losing it like that?

    The DESIRE FOR BAPTISM is a very important thing.  It is really a signal grace of predestination.  Any priest on a battle field faces this dilemma.  He would have no idea if all the dead soldiers lying there had been baptized or wanted to be or had changed their mind at the last moment.  So his standard form would be the Conditional Baptism, since he can't know all the particulars, and there are so many victims to help all at once.  The mere sight of a priest doing that should be enough to convert any observers, and if not, it would be to their serious culpability.


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    Online Stubborn

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #21 on: December 07, 2013, 05:50:04 AM »
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  • From Trent's catechism:

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

    Insane, delirious persons who were once of sound mind and afterwards became deranged, having in their present state no wish to be baptised, are not to be admitted to Baptism, unless in danger of death. In such cases, if previous to insanity they give intimation of a wish to be baptised, the Sacrament is to be administered; without such indication previously given it is not to be administered. The same rule is to be followed with regard to persons who are unconscious.

    But if they (the insane) never enjoyed the use of reason, the authority and practice of the Church decide that they are to be baptised in the faith of the Church, just as children are baptised before they come to the use of reason.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline soulguard

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 07:09:27 AM »
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  • I feel for you 2Vermont.

    But have you ever thought that it might be God's justice that only those who love Him have a chance of going to heaven? My mother is also an unbeliever, and the last time I spoke to her she ridiculed the notion that there is a hell. I am the only Catholic in the family, and if she is saved it will have something to do with me, but I do not expect her to convert, for she hates the church with an unholy passion, and is entirely ignorant also, despite claiming the name "Catholic" for herself.

    I just pray for the conversion of my enemies, for I have many. But I do not mention them by name, for it would destroy me. Sometimes I think they deserve hell for all they have done, and that would be God's justice. But I still pray for the conversion of my enemies. It is up to God now. If it serves His plan for the world, He will do it. I can do nothing without His supernatural help.


    Online 2Vermont

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #23 on: December 07, 2013, 07:20:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Just consult a Traditional priest on the subject.



    This probably is the correct route and I know the perfect man for the job.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online 2Vermont

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #24 on: December 07, 2013, 07:24:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    I feel for you 2Vermont.

    But have you ever thought that it might be God's justice that only those who love Him have a chance of going to heaven? My mother is also an unbeliever, and the last time I spoke to her she ridiculed the notion that there is a hell. I am the only Catholic in the family, and if she is saved it will have something to do with me, but I do not expect her to convert, for she hates the church with an unholy passion, and is entirely ignorant also, despite claiming the name "Catholic" for herself.



    Actually, my father is probably more in this group, sad to say.  Whereas I think my mother has some inklings, my father is totally closed minded about religion in general.  I pray for both (Dad is 82), but Mom is just in another "place" and because of that I have more hope with her.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online 2Vermont

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 07:28:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ladislaus


     I'm pretty sure that you cannot licitly baptize someone who falls unconscious unless before falling unconscious they had shown SOME sign of wanting to become Catholic.  It could be a nod or a grunt in response to a question, but absent some sign or indication of their wanting to become Catholic, you can't just baptize someone.  That would be a sacrilege against the Sacrament of Baptism.


    Ladislaus,

    Can you show me a reliable resource to back this up?

    It really matters to me. I would like to have a throughout understanding of what is to be done in cases where the unconscious Non Catholic did not show any willingness to baptize right before death.  


    I can see that this is a topic that perhaps we haven't talked about here?  It is clear that it is something that is very important....probably to many of us who have non-Catholic family members and friends.  I'm glad this turned out to be a thread that might be helpful to all.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Online 2Vermont

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #26 on: December 07, 2013, 07:30:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    A Baptism against someone's will would not be valid.
    Best advice is to pray for her and in her last hours try to bring a good priest to her bedside and with God's grace the proper sign might be revealed and he can assist her upon discerning that signal of her consent.

    If you are close to her she may trust in you enough at that time to open her heart to God's mercy.

    God bless you for caring about this most difficult problem. I will pray for you both and that moment of grace.


    Thank you.  This thread has brought tears to my eyes.  Other than my husband, she is the most important person in my life.  It's going to be hard enough to lose her in this life.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline JPaul

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #27 on: December 07, 2013, 11:28:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: J.Paul
    A Baptism against someone's will would not be valid.
    Best advice is to pray for her and in her last hours try to bring a good priest to her bedside and with God's grace the proper sign might be revealed and he can assist her upon discerning that signal of her consent.

    If you are close to her she may trust in you enough at that time to open her heart to God's mercy.

    God bless you for caring about this most difficult problem. I will pray for you both and that moment of grace.


    Thank you.  This thread has brought tears to my eyes.  Other than my husband, she is the most important person in my life.  It's going to be hard enough to lose her in this life.


    Do not despair, in this time which for us Catholics is a season of hope for our religion rests upon hope and we must rejoice in that hope in the sure knowledge of God's goodness and love for all souls. Above all God is incredibly kind and tender to the heart that loves him.

    Pray of course, remain close to her and let your life and hope be visible to her. When a person is near their end of life things happen in their soul and mind. You are of her blood and that is a mystical bond which may present itself at that time. You can only do what is possible for you to do and then you must place it into God's hands and trust in that hope of His promises.


     "But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience."

    " Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing; that you may abound in hope, and in the power of the Holy Ghost."


















    Offline CathMomof7

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 12:21:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Right now my mother is healthy and for all I know has a number of years left here on Earth.  She is Jєωιѕн, but has always seemed more open to the Catholic Faith than your stereotypical Jєωιѕн mother.  In fact, in response to a prayer of mine years ago, I believe/she believes she had a vision of the Virgin Mary. She has also attended mass with me before. Anyway, regardless, she is not baptized and at this time doesn't want to be baptized.  

    What is the Church's teaching on baptizing someone against their will.  I would like to think that before she dies, God will grace her with the desire to be baptized, but if she does not, can I even baptize her?  For example, let's say she is not conscious at some point.  Is a baptism even valid in this sort of scenario?  I know we baptize babies without them knowing, but is this really the same thing?

    Thanks in advance.


    I share your pain, desire, and sentiment.  My aged mother, a hard-hearted Southern Baptist, lives with our family, and I pray daily for her conversion.  But.....you cannot do it.

    In March of this year, my mother was very ill, near death.  I talked to my priest about my feelings and concerns.  He made me ask my mother if she desired to be Catholic, in those words.  My mother replied that she didn't see the point and that was that.

    As much as we desire it, we cannot convert or, in your case, baptize our loved ones.  As adults, they have to knowingly and willingly desire to belong to Christ's Church.  If they do not desire this, there is nothing we can do except pray, offer reparation for their obstinance, and fast.  

    It is more painful to me now that my mother has slipped into early Alzheimer's disease.  Some days her mind is very clear and other days she is completely lost.  I fear it is too late.  

    Again, I share your pain and frustration.  I will pray for your mother's conversion and your peace of heart.  Please pray for my mother's as well.


    Offline CathMomof7

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    My Elderly Jєωιѕн Mother and Baptism
    « Reply #29 on: December 07, 2013, 12:29:32 PM »
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  • I wanted to add this, I placed some religious icons in my mother's room:  images of Saints and a small statue of Our Blessed Mother.  We say prayers when she is awake.  I have placed a green scapular under her mattress and left her with Rosaries.  

    My priest would willing come to visit with her, but she only desires that he come to stroke her hand, not catechize her.  It is very sad.

    I pray that some of our children's catechism lessons have made their way into her heart, and that at the moment of her last breath Our Blessed Mother comes to her and helps her see Our Lord.

    Never stop praying or trying.  Even if we have no impact on our mother's lives, we will have honored our parents by helping them attain the necessary graces for salvation.

     :incense: