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Author Topic: Miraculous Baptisms  (Read 112158 times)

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Online WorldsAway

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Re: Miraculous Baptisms
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 10:13:53 PM »
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  • Please provide one council or one Pope teaching Guardian Angels to the universal Church. Are they real? Why do you believe those silly fairy tales? We have only one mediator you know.
    Guardian Angels have biblical basis, and AFAIK is something that can actually be said to be the 'unanimous and constant" teaching of Church Fathers

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    If a doctrine [sic] has been around since at least the Fathers, been taught by St. Thomas, and never condemned by Pope or Council, what is the problem!?
    Are Sts. Cyprian and Alphonsus in error? Somebody should have corrected them in the course of Church History. If St. Thomas or Garrigou Lagrange didn't issue any correction, nobody will.

    BOD is not doctrine. It was not taught by Our Lord, the Apostles, or unanimously by the Fathers, and has never been taught by a Council or by a Pope to the universal Church. It is an opinion, and one that I do believe will be condemned one day. There is still time
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    I would like to forgive those suffering from the "No true Scottsman" fallacy for attacking the doctrines, since it occasions the responses of those better prepared to defend the things we take for granted better than I do.

    Have you read the actual doctrine I posted from Trent, Pope St. Leo the Great, Eugene IV and the Council of Florence? Please at least consider it..if you want, I can put it all in a single post for convenience. 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Shrewd Operator

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    Re: Miraculous Baptisms
    « Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 11:16:52 PM »
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  • Guardian Angels have biblical basis, and AFAIK is something that can actually be said to be the 'unanimous and constant" teaching of Church Fathers

    BOD is not doctrine. It was not taught by Our Lord, the Apostles, or unanimously by the Fathers, and has never been taught by a Council or by a Pope to the universal Church. It is an opinion, and one that I do believe will be condemned one day. There is still time
    Have you read the actual doctrine I posted from Trent, Pope St. Leo the Great, Eugene IV and the Council of Florence? Please at least consider it..if you want, I can put it all in a single post for convenience.
    This doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.

    There are Scripture quotes to support BoD in the materials the other posters provided.

    BoD is a part of BoW doctrine as covered in all the sources you provided. All of the positive things they (Councils, etc.) have to say about BoW apply to the other two, as long as the nuances listed in the material the other posters gave are observed. If BoD were going to be condemned, it would have been condemned by Trent since it was so focused on justification and the Sacraments. The Council Fathers and Church Fathers were in a better position to know than anyone since, that's why nobody has condemned it up to now. The Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him.

    The only thing that can be condemned is the Modernist interpretation/opinion that aims for universal salvation by Bod. That will be condemned one day, unless you consider it already condemned by St. Pius X who condemned Modernism.


    Offline Tarmac Turkey

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    Re: Miraculous Baptisms
    « Reply #32 on: Today at 03:40:09 AM »
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  • It is not called the Boston Heresy for nothing. Pope St Pius X teaches Baptism of Desire and Blood in his Catchesim:

    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.



    "He that shall lose his life for Me, shall find it." (Matt. 10:39) affirms Baptism of Blood by Our Lord Himself.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Miraculous Baptisms
    « Reply #33 on: Today at 04:53:49 AM »
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  • It is not called the Boston Heresy for nothing. Pope St Pius X teaches Baptism of Desire and Blood in his Catchesim:

    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.



    "He that shall lose his life for Me, shall find it." (Matt. 10:39) affirms Baptism of Blood by Our Lord Himself.
    The original catechism does not have these in it. It's an addition. Also it's called the Boston heresy because jews and freemasons like to lie and deceive people, that's why all the newspapers immediately all printed that the Church changed her teaching on EENS.

    Emotionally minded people and people with weak logic are easily fooled by things like this.

    This doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.

    There are Scripture quotes to support BoD in the materials the other posters provided.

    BoD is a part of BoW doctrine as covered in all the sources you provided. All of the positive things they (Councils, etc.) have to say about BoW apply to the other two, as long as the nuances listed in the material the other posters gave are observed. If BoD were going to be condemned, it would have been condemned by Trent since it was so focused on justification and the Sacraments. The Council Fathers and Church Fathers were in a better position to know than anyone since, that's why nobody has condemned it up to now. The Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him.
    The only thing that can be condemned is the Modernist interpretation/opinion that aims for universal salvation by Bod. That will be condemned one day, unless you consider it already condemned by St. Pius X who condemned Modernism.

    No the infallible statements made by the Church reject the very notion of both BoD and BoB, that means scripture does not teach it and any interpretation that does so is wrong and contrary to faith. You are ignoring the truth here, very few fathers believed in these errors, even St Gregory nαzιunsus who the Church titles 'theologian' outright rejected BoD.

    It's clear you are here with bad will since you said "Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him."

    You ignored all the evidence that was contrary to your false beliefs and once again falsely as attributed rejection of BoD as an invention of Fr Feeney. But clearly St Gregory denied it, so is St Gregory a feeneyite? Or are you going to call us Gregoryites?

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Miraculous Baptisms
    « Reply #34 on: Today at 06:49:37 AM »
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  • This doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.
    Sure, it's not. I don't rely on Guardian Angel doctrine to disprove BOD.


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    There are Scripture quotes to support BoD in the materials the other posters provided.

    If they are read how the Church reads them, or how were are to read them in light of Church teaching, there are none. In fact, it is the exact opposite (e.g Trent 'as it is written' regarding John 3:5)


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    BoD is a part of BoW doctrine as covered in all the sources you provided. All of the positive things they (Councils, etc.) have to say about BoW apply to the other two, as long as the nuances listed in the material the other posters gave are observed. If BoD were going to be condemned, it would have been condemned by Trent since it was so focused on justification and the Sacraments. The Council Fathers and Church Fathers were in a better position to know than anyone since, that's why nobody has condemned it up to now. The Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him.

    No, it is not. Doctrine pertaining to the Sacrament of Baptism is just that..you will never, ever find the Church teaching a second or third baptism, or baptism without water or with blood, while treating on the Sacrament of Baptism. Again, it's almost always the exact opposite of what you are saying. When the Church teaches about Baptism, She teaches about water.

    For instance:

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    For, by baptism we are reborn spiritually; by confirmation we grow in grace and are strengthened in faith. Once reborn and strengthened, we are nourished by the food of the divine Eucharist. But if through sin we incur an illness of the soul, we are cured spiritually by penance. Spiritually also and bodily as suits the soul, by extreme unction. By orders the church is governed and spiritually multiplied; by matrimony it grows bodily.
    All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected.

    ...

    Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence
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    Trent, ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL

    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema

    ...

    ON BAPTISM [remember, Trent is treating on the Sacraments, this is a part of Trent's decree on the Sacraments]

    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

    ...

    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema





    So, from these two councils we are taught:

    The Sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not all. (Trent, Sacraments, Canon IV) Meaning at least one is

    The Sacraments consist of matter, form, and intention. If any one of these is lacking, the Sacrament is not effected (Florence)

    The matter of Baptism is true and natural water (Florence, and Trent, On Baptism Canon II)

    The form of Baptism is "I baptize you in the name of the Father, etc." (Florence, and Trent, Baptism, Canon IV)

    The Sacrament of Baptism is the one Sacrament that is absolutely necessary for salvation (Trent, Baptism, Canon V)

    Without true and natural water, the Sacrament of Baptism, which is necessary for salvation, cannot be effected (Trent, Baptism, Canon II)




    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.