“In all, St. Patrick brought to life some forty infidels in Ireland, one of whom was King Echu… On raising him from the dead, St. Patrick instructed and baptized him, asking what he had seen of the other world. King Echu told how he had actually beheld the throne prepared for him in Heaven because of his life of being open to the grace of Almighty God, but that he was not allowed to enter precisely because he was as yet unbaptized. After receiving the sacraments… (he) died instantly and went to his reward.”
“Many such saints have been recorded as resurrecting grown-ups specifically and exclusively for the Sacrament of Baptism, including St. Peter Claver, St. Winifred of Wales, St. Julian of Mans, St. Eleutherius, and others. But even more have raised up little infants for the sacrament of salvation: St. Gregory nαzιanz… St. Hilary… St. Elizabeth… St. Colette… St. Frances of Rome… St. Joan of Arc… St. Philip Neri… St. Francis Xavier… St. Gildas… St. Gerard Majella… to name a few.”
“When Father Claver arrived at her deathbed, Augustina lay cold to the touch, her body already being prepared for burial. He prayed at her bedside for one hour, when suddenly the woman sat up, vomited a pool of blood, and declared upon being questioned by those in attendance: ‘I have come from journeying along a long road. After I had gone a long way down it, I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said: Stop! You can go no further.’… On hearing this, Father Claver cleared the room and prepared to hear her Confession, thinking she was in need of absolution for some sin she may have forgotten. But in the course of the ritual, St. Peter Claver was inspired to realize that she had never been baptized. He cut short her confession and declined to give her absolution, calling instead for water with which to baptize her. Augustina’s master insisted that she could not possibly need baptism since she had been in his employ for twenty years and had never failed to go to Mass, Confession, and Communion all that time. Nevertheless, Father Claver insisted on baptizing her, after which Augustina died again joyfully and peacefully in the presence of the whole family.”
“I have often remarked that many of the children seem to await baptism before winging their flight to heaven, for they die almost immediately after receiving the sacrament.”
“… over a hundred children and eleven old people were baptized. Many of the latter [the old people], who were carried on buffalo hides, seemed only to await this grace before going to rest in the bosom of God.”
“[Columbanus said]: ‘My sons, today you will see an ancient Pictish chief, who has faithfully kept the precepts of the Natural Law all his life, arrive on this island; he comes to be baptized and to die.’ Immediately, a boat was seen to approach with a feeble old man seated in the prow who was recognized as chief of one of the neighboring tribes. Two of his companions brought him before the missionary, to whose words he listened attentively. The old man asked to be baptized, and immediately thereafter breathed out his last breath and was buried on the very spot.”
“One morning, upon leaving the church I met an Indian woman, who said: ‘So-and-so is not well.’ She [the person who was not well] was not yet a catechumen and I said I would go to see her. An hour later the same person [who came and told him the person is not well], who was her sister, came to me saying she was dead. I ran to the tent, hoping she might be mistaken, and found a crowd of relatives around the bed, repeating, ‘She is dead – she has not breathed for some time.’ To assure myself, I leaned over the body; there was no sign of life. I reproved these excellent people for not telling me at once of the gravity of the situation, adding, ‘May God forgive me!’ Then, rather impatiently, I said, ‘Pray!’ and all fell on their knees and prayed devoutly.
“I again leaned over the supposed corpse and said, ‘The Black Robe is here: do you wish him to baptize you?’ At the word baptism I saw a slight tremor of the lower lip; then both lips moved, making me certain that she understood. She had already been instructed, so I at once baptized her, and she rose from her bier, making the sign of the cross. Today she is out hunting and is fully persuaded that she died at the time I have recounted.”
“A baby, the child of a Protestant mother, had died without Baptism. St. Francis had gone to speak to the mother about Catholic doctrine, and prayed that the child would be restored to life long enough to receive Baptism. His prayer was granted, and the whole family became Catholic.”
“The way in which one deduces an article of faith is this: the Word of God is infallible; the Word of God declares that Baptism is necessary for salvation; therefore Baptism is necessary for salvation.”
“At Uzale, a woman had an infant son… Unfortunately, he died before they had time to baptize him. His mother was overwhelmed with grief, more for his being deprived of Life Eternal than because he was dead to her. Full of confidence, she took the dead child and publicly carried him to the Church of St. Stephen, the first martyr. There she commenced to pray for the son she had just lost. Her son moved, uttered a cry, and was suddenly restored to life. She immediately brought him to the priests; and, after receiving the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, he died anew.”
“God protects and governs by His providence all things which He has created, ‘reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly’...”
“By this edict which will prevail forever, with apostolic authority we declare… the holy apostles, the martyrs, the confessors, virgins, and the other faithful who died after the holy baptism of Christ had been received by them, in whom there was nothing to be purged… and the souls of children departing before the use of free will, reborn and baptized in the same baptism of Christ, when all have been baptized… have been, are, and will be in heaven…”
These examples are very consoling and were very instructive to the pagans and protestants who witnessed them. They show the great mercy of God.St Dismas and the Holy Innocents died before the Church was established and baptism became necessary. Where did you find the two other examples?
However, we have examples of mercy that are yet greater still. We have examples of canonized saints who were miraculously baptized, who definitely did not receive water baptism; St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents first of all, and many others.
We must have these examples so that no one of good will may despair. An atheist flying a plane solo and about to crash need only make an act of Faith to save his soul. A commie solider in Siberia who is instantly shot for refusing to shoot a priest will not be abandoned by the very Grace that stayed him.
We have examples of canonized saints who were miraculously baptized, who definitely did not receive water baptism; St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents first of all, and many others.I don't believe we have any such examples, where it can be proven that any particular saint (after Our Lord's Passion) died without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism. St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents died before the institution of the Church and the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation
These examples are very consoling and were very instructive to the pagans and protestants who witnessed them. They show the great mercy of God.
However, we have examples of mercy that are yet greater still. We have examples of canonized saints who were miraculously baptized, who definitely did not receive water baptism; St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents first of all, and many others.
We must have these examples so that no one of good will may despair. An atheist flying a plane solo and about to crash need only make an act of Faith to save his soul. A commie solider in Siberia who is instantly shot for refusing to shoot a priest will not be abandoned by the very Grace that stayed him.
These examples are very consoling and were very instructive to the pagans and protestants who witnessed them. They show the great mercy of God.Actually denial of baptism is not a testimony of God's mercy but a mockery and an act of unbelief.
However, we have examples of mercy that are yet greater still. We have examples of canonized saints who were miraculously baptized, who definitely did not receive water baptism; St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents first of all, and many others.
We must have these examples so that no one of good will may despair. An atheist flying a plane solo and about to crash need only make an act of Faith to save his soul. A commie solider in Siberia who is instantly shot for refusing to shoot a priest will not be abandoned by the very Grace that stayed him.
I don't believe we have any such examples, where it can be proven that any particular saint (after Our Lord's Passion) died without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism. St. Dismas and the Holy Innocents died before the institution of the Church and the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation
That's why they always rehash the fake examples, since this is the best they've got, invalid ones from the Old Covenant and of course the famous St. Emerentiana, patron saint of BoDers, even though there's no proof she hadn't been baptized. In times of persecution, the Pope mandated Baptism earlier than normal but those so baptized would continue on as "catechumen" until they finished their training.Yeah, for any claim of an unbaptized saint there is just as much (or more) evidence that can be provided showing that they were in fact baptised, or that is was never Traditionally claimed that they were unbaptized..such as St. Emerentiana, St. Alban's converted soldier, the 40th martyr, of Sebaste, etc.
An atheist flying a plane solo and about to crash need only make an act of Faith to save his soul. A commie solider in Siberia who is instantly shot for refusing to shoot a priest will not be abandoned by the very Grace that stayed him.I can make up scenarios also.
What we do have proof of, however, is people who would 100% be candidates for 'BOD' being raised from the dead specifically to be baptized, or being miraculously kept alive just long enough to be baptised and then immediately dying
This slop isn't worth replying to point-by-point, so I will leave you with some actual quotes regarding the sacrament of baptism. That's what BODers always conveniently forget to do..provide actual quotes showing this so-called "unanimous teaching" of BOD ..or even a single quote from a Council teaching BOD, or a single instance of a Pope teaching BOD to the universal Church. Incredible!
Long before the modern crisis, the Church—Popes, catechisms, canonists, theologians, and Fathers—unanimously taught:
(a) Baptism of Water
The ordinary, sacramental means of regeneration.
(b) Baptism of Desire
Explicit or implicit, always involving supernatural faith, perfect contrition, and the will to receive the sacrament when possible.
(c) Baptism of Blood
Martyrdom suffered for Christ, conferring the grace of the sacrament.
This is not a “post-Vatican II” notion. It is Patristic, medieval, and dogmatically recognized.
2. Pre-Vatican II Magisterial Witnesses
The Feeneyite position has no Father, no Doctor, no council, and no Pope behind it.
6. Feeneyism Is a Rejection of the Church’s Authority
To deny the possibility of baptism of desire or blood is to deny:
The Council of Trent
The unanimous witness of the Fathers
That is why every pre-Vatican II manual lists Feeneyism as an error.
7. Conclusion
A Catholic may not reject the constant, universal teaching of the Church under the pretext of “defending Scripture.” The Feeneyite is not defending Our Lord—he is correcting Our Lord’s Church.
Pre-Vatican II Catholic doctrine infallibly holds:
Water baptism is necessary in re (in reality)
Desire or blood baptism can supply the sacramental grace in voto (by desire) or in re as martyrdom
In the first millennium of the Church there lived hundreds of holy men and saints who are called “Fathers of the Church.” Tixeront, in his Handbook of Patrology, lists over five hundred whose names and writings have come down to us.[cxvi] The Fathers (or prominent early Christian Catholic writers) are unanimous from the beginning that no one enters heaven or is freed from original sin without water baptism.
In the letter of Barnabas, dated as early as 70 A.D., we read:
“… we descend into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our heart…”[cxvii]
In 140 A.D., the early Church Father Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5, and writes:
“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.”[cxviii]
This statement is obviously a paraphrase of John 3:5, and thus it demonstrates that from the very beginning of the apostolic age it was held and taught by the fathers that no one enters heaven without being born again of water and the Spirit based specifically on Our Lord Jesus Christ’s declaration in John 3:5.
In 155 A.D., St. Justin the Martyr writes:
“… they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn… in the name of God… they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ The reason for doing this we have learned from the apostles.”[cxix]
Notice that St. Justin Martyr, like Hermas, also quotes the words of Jesus in John 3:5, and based on Christ’s words he teaches that it is from apostolic tradition that no one at all can enter Heaven without being born again of water and the Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism.
In his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, also dated 155 A.D., St. Justin Martyr further writes:
“… hasten to learn in what way forgiveness of sins and a hope of the inheritance… may be yours. There is no other way than this: acknowledge Christ, be washed in the washing announced by Isaias [Baptism]…”[cxx]
In 180 A.D., St. Irenaeus writes:
“… giving the disciples the power of regenerating in God, He said to them: ‘Go teach all nations, and baptize… Just as dry wheat without moisture cannot become one dough or one loaf, so also, we who are many cannot be made one in Christ Jesus, without the water from heaven…Our bodies achieve unity through the washing… our souls, however, through the Spirit. Both, then, are necessary.”[cxxi]
Here we see again a clear enunciation of the constant and apostolic Tradition that no one is saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, from no less than the great apostolic father St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century. St. Irenaeus knew St. Polycarp and St. Polycarp knew the Apostle John himself.
In 181 A.D., St. Theophilus continues the Tradition:
“… those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration…”[cxxii]
In 203 A.D., Tertullian writes:
“… it is in fact prescribed that no one can attain to salvation without Baptism, especially in view of that declaration of the Lord, who says: ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life [John 3:5]…”[cxxiii]
Notice how Tertullian affirms the same apostolic Tradition that no one is saved without water baptism based on the words of Jesus Himself.
Tertullian further writes in 203 A.D.:
“A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away … nor can we otherwise be saved, except by permanently abiding in the water.”[cxxiv]
Baptism has also been called since apostolic times the Seal, the Sign and the Illumination; for without this Seal, Sign or Illumination no one is forgiven of original sin or sealed as a member of Jesus Christ.
“… he that confirmeth us with you in Christ, and that hath anointed us, is God: Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.” (2 Cor. 1:21-22)
As early as 140 A.D., Hermas had already taught this truth – that Baptism is the Seal – which was delivered by the Apostles from Jesus Christ.
Hermas, 140 A.D.: “… before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead, and come out of it alive.”[cxxv]
In the famous work entitled The Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, 120-170 A.D., we read:
“For of those who have not kept the seal of baptism he says: ‘Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched.’”[cxxvi]
St. Ephraim, c. 350 A.D.: “… we are anointed in Baptism, whereby we bear His seal.”[cxxvii]
St. Gregory Nyssa, c. 380 A.D.: “Make haste, O sheep, towards the sign of the cross and the Seal [Baptism] which will save you from your misery!”[cxxviii]
St. Clement of Alexandria, 202 A.D.:
“When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons… This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins…”[cxxix]
Origen, 244 A.D.:
“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants… there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.”[cxxx]
St. Aphraates, the oldest of the Syrian fathers, writes in 336 A.D.:
“This, then, is faith: that a man believe in God … His Spirit …His Christ… Also, that a man believe in the resurrection of the dead; and moreover, that he believe in the Sacrament of Baptism. This is the belief of the Church of God.”[cxxxi]
The same Syrian father further writes:
“For from baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ… For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth.”[cxxxii]
Here we see in the writings of St. Aphraates the same teaching of Tradition on the absolute necessity of water baptism for salvation based on the words of Christ in John 3:5.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, 350 A.D.:
“He says, ‘Unless a man be born again’ – and He adds the words ‘of water and the Spirit’ – he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God…..if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.”[cxxxiii]
We see that St. Cyril continues the apostolic Tradition that no one enters heaven without being born again of water and the Spirit, based again on an absolute understanding Our Lord’s own words in John 3:5.
St. Basil the Great, c. 355 A.D.:
“Whence is it that we are Christians? Through faith, all will answer. How are we saved? By being born again in the grace of baptism… For it is the same loss for anyone to depart this life unbaptized, as to receive that baptism from which one thing of what has been handed down has been omitted.”[cxxxiv]
St. Gregory of Elvira, 360 A.D.:
“Christ is called Net, because through Him and in Him the diverse multitudes of peoples are gathered from the sea of the world, through the water of Baptism and into the Church, where a distinction is made between the good and the wicked.”[cxxxv]
St. Ephraim, 366 A.D.:
“This the Most Holy Catholic Church professes. In this same Holy Trinity She baptizes unto eternal life.”[cxxxvi]
Pope St. Damasus, 382 A.D.:
“This, then, is the salvation of Christians: that believing in the Trinity, that is, in the Father, and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and baptized in it…”[cxxxvii]
St. Ambrose, 387 A.D.:
“… no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.”[cxxxviii]
St. Ambrose, 387 A.D.:
“‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”[cxxxix]
St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:
“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”[cxl]
St. John Chrysostom, 392 A.D.:
“Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ not a whit from them, those who go hence without illumination, without the seal! … They are outside the royal city…. with the condemned. ‘Amen, I tell you, if anyone is not born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”[cxli]
St Augustine, 395 A.D.:
“… God does not forgive sins except to the baptized.”[cxlii]
Pope St. Innocent, 414 A.D.:
“But that which Your Fraternity asserts the Pelagians preach, that even without the grace of Baptism infants are able to be endowed with the rewards of eternal life, is quite idiotic.”[cxliii]
Pope St. Gregory the Great, c. 590 A.D.:
“Forgiveness of sin is bestowed on us only by the baptism of Christ.”[cxliv]
Theophylactus, Patriarch of Bulgaria, c. 800 A.D.:
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved. It does not suffi
ce to believe; he who believes, and is not yet baptized, but is only a catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation.”[cxlv]
[T]he sacrament of baptism is consecrated in water at the invocation of the undivided Trinity — namely Father, Son and holy Spirit — and brings salvation to both children and adults when it is correctly carried out by anyone in the form laid down by the church
Fourth Lateran Council
All are faithfully to profess that there is one baptism which regenerates all those baptized in Christ, just as there is one God and one faith’. We believe that when baptism is administered in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit, it is a perfect means of salvation for both adults and children. Yet because, as regards the effect of baptism in children, we find that certain theologians have held contrary opinions, some saying that by baptism guilt is indeed remitted in infants but grace is not conferred, others on the contrary asserting that both guilt is remitted and the virtues and sanctifying grace are infused with regard to habit though for the time being not with regard to use, we, considering the general efficacy of Christ’s death, which through baptism is applied in like manner to all the baptised, choose, with the approval of the sacred council, the second opinion, which says that sanctifying grace and the virtues are conferred in baptism on both infants and adults, as more probable and more in harmony with the words of the saints and of modern doctors of theology.
Council of Vienne
All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected
Three of the sacraments, namely baptism, confirmation and orders, imprint indelibly on the soul a character, that is a kind of stamp which distinguishes it from the rest. Hence they are not repeated in the same person. The other four, however, do not imprint a character and can be repeated.
Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. But we do not deny that true baptism is conferred by the following words: May this servant of Christ be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit; or, This person is baptized by my hands in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. Since the holy Trinity is the principle cause from which baptism has its power and the minister is the instrumental cause who exteriorly bestows the sacrament, the sacrament is conferred if the action is performed by the minister with the invocation of the holy Trinity. The minister of this sacrament is a priest, who is empowered to baptize in virtue of his office. But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God
Council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence
SESSION 8 22 November 1439 [Bull of union with the Armenians]
Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood; and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot. Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin; and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God ? It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony–Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others. The reason is that it is by this faith that the catholic church lives and grows, by believing that neither the humanity is without true divinity nor the divinity without true humanity.
Pope St. Leo the Great
Dogmatic Letter to Flavian, Bishop of Constantinople
Council of Chalcedon
Quote
On Baptism
Trent: On [the sacrament] of baptism:
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Decree on the Sacraments, On The Sacraments In General
If you dig just a bit below the surface of any BoDer, you'll find that it has nothing to do with the rare case of a Catechumen who dies in a car wreck on the way to his Baptism, and everything to do with creating "loopholes" to EENS dogma, since they don't want to accept it.Yes, and in my opinion, it has to do with human respect. It's "too difficult" for them to have to explain to non-catholic family and friends that the "No, the catholic religion isn't hateful" and that "No, catholicism doesn't have a mean God". That is a difficult conversation to have, no doubt. But our religion is difficult.
Yes, and in my opinion, it has to do with human respect. It's "too difficult" for them to have to explain to non-catholic family and friends that the "No, the catholic religion isn't hateful" and that "No, catholicism doesn't have a mean God". That is a difficult conversation to have, no doubt. But our religion is difficult.
If the Baptism of Desire and Blood isn't Church teaching then why was Fr Feeney excommunicated in 1953? Why did he not obey the summons to Rome to explain his position?Fr. Feeney was "excommunicated" for disobedience, not for what he was teaching. He did not "obey" his summons because it was not in accord with canon law.
Canon 737Canon law is not infallible and is certainly not intended to teach the Faith, it is for the governance of the Church
§ 1. Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, ACTUALLY or at least in DESIRE is
necessary for all for salvation and is not validly conferred except by washing with true and natural
water along with the prescribed formula of words.
So without Baptism there can be no salvation, we agree on that. But the Church also provides the means to salvation as shown in Canon Law.
Fr. Feeney was "excommunicated" for disobedience, not for what he was teaching. He did not "obey" his summons because it was not in accord with canon law.August 8, 1949
If BOD is Church teaching it should be easy for you to find one (1) Council teaching it or one (1) Pope teaching it to the universal Church
Define the matter and form of BOD, or find where the Church has defined them..because the Church teaches that the Sacraments (at least one, Baptism) are necessary for salvation, that the sacraments consist of matter, form, and intention, and the Church also teaches that the matter of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water, without which the sacrament is not effected.
Canon law is not infallible and is certainly not intended to teach the Faith, it is for the governance of the Church
Read Pope St. Leo the Great's dogmatic letter that I posted. Justification is inseparable from the waters of baptism (the Sacrament)
August 8, 1949The dubious Protocol 122/49 did not appear in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis and actually contains heresy, as it claims that the "invincibly ignorant" can attain salvation by their ignorance. Explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation is necessary for salvation by necessity of means, as taught by Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence. Protocol 122/49 contradicts that.
Protocol Number 122/49.
It is de fide [that is, it belongs to the Catholic Faith—Ed.] that there are some men saved also by the baptism of the Spirit."
Yes, there were, at most, 2-4 Church Fathers who held BOD or BOB.St. Cyprian (c.210-258)St. Alphonsus says
In the very next paragraph, St. Cyprian teaches, with all the fathers, doctors, popes and unanimously all theologians, that baptism of blood, that is, dying for the Catholic Faith, is the most glorious and perfect baptism of all
August 8, 1949This: no one will be saved who, knowing the
Protocol Number 122/49.
Your Excellency:
This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very
attentively the rise and the course of the grave
controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St.
Benedict Center” and “Boston College” in regard to the
interpretation of that axiom: “Outside Church there is no
salvation.”
After having examined all the docuмents that are
necessary or useful in this matter, among them
information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and
reports in which the associates of “St. Benedict Center”
explain their Opinions and complaints and also many
other docuмents pertinent to the controversy, officially
collected, same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the
unfortunate controversy arose from, the fact that the
axiom: “outside the Church there is no salvation,” was
not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same
controversy was rendered more bitter by serious
disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some
of the associates of the institutions mentioned above
refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.
Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend
Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary
session, held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and
the August Pontiff in an audience on the following
Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that
the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and
also that invitations and exhortations relevant to
discipline be given:
We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe
all those things which are contained in the word of God,
whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are propose by
the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only
through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary
and universal teaching office (Denzinger, n. 1792). Now,
among those things which the Church has always
preached and will never cease to preach is contained also
that infallible statement by which we are taught that there
is no salvation outside the Church.
However, this dogma must be understood in that
sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it
was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for
explanation those things that are contained in the deposit
of faith, but to the teaching authority' of the Church.
Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in
this matter there is question of a most strict command of
Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to
teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He
Himself had commanded (Matt., 28:19-20).
Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one
holds not the least place, by we are commanded to be
incorporated by Baptism into the Mystical Body of
Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to
Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.
Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the
Church to have been divinely established by Christ,
nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or
withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar
of Christ on earth. Not only did the Savior command that
all nations should enter the Church, but also decreed the
Church to be a means of salvation, without which no one
can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.
In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects,
necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation
which are directed toward man's final end, not by
intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also
be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are
used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated
in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the
Sacrament of Regeneration and in reference to the
Sacrament of Penance.
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the
Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation.
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not
always required that he be incorporated into the Church
actually as a member, but it necessary that at least he be
united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it
is in catechumens; but when person is involved in
invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire,
so called because it is included in that good disposition of
soul whereby a person wishes will to be conformed to the
will of God.
These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter
which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius
XII, on June 29, 1943, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus
Christ” (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193ff.). For in this
letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between
those who are actually incorporated into the Church as
members, and those who are united to the Church only
by desire.
Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body
is composed here on earth, same August Pontiff says:
“Actually only those are to be included as members e
Church who have been baptized and profess the true
faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to
separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been
excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults
committed.”
Toward the end of this same Encyclical Letter, when
most affectionately inviting unity those who do not
belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions
who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer
by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these
he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but the
other hand states that they are in a condition “in which
they cannot be sure their salvation” since “they still
remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps
which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” AAS loc. cit., 243).
With these wise words he reproves both those who
exclude from eternal salvation united to the Church only
by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men
be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX,
Allocution Singulari quadam, in Denzinger, nn. 1641, ff.
also Pope Pius IX in the Encyclical Letter Quanto
conficiamur moerore in Denzinger, n. 1677).
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of
entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is
necessary that the desire by which one is related to the
Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an
implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has
supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must
believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who
seek Him” (Hebrew 11:6). The Council of Trent declares
(Session VI, chap 8): Faith is the beginning of a man's
salvation, the foundation and root of all justification,
without which it is impossible to please God and attain to
the fellowship of His children” (Denzinger, n. 80l).
From what has been said it is evident that those
things which are proposed in the periodical “From the
Housetops,” fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the
Catholic Church are far from being such and are very
harmful both to those within the Church and those
without.
From these declarations which pertain to doctrine
certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and
conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who
vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound of
belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the
authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops
“whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the
Church” (Acts, 20:28).
Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict
Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and
wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the
prescriptions of Canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of
Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord
and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a
source of the disturbance of many consciences.
Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a
member of a religious institute, namely Father Feeney,
presents himself as a “Defender of the faith,” and at the
same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical
instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not
even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the
sacred canons because of his serious violations of his
duties as a religious, a priest and an ordinary member
of the Church.
Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain
Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a
periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological
doctrines, without the permission of competent Church
Authority; called the “imprimatur,” which is prescribed
by the sacred canons.
Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged
against the Church seriously bear in mind that after
“Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by
reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of
obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of
those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an
unconscious desire.” Let them realize that they are
children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with
the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence,
having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot
be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to
them applies without any restriction that principle:
submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign
Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem,
and remain Your Excellency's most devoted
Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani
A. Ottaviani Assessor
To His Excellency
Most Reverend Richard James Cushing
Archbishop of Boston
If the Baptism of Desire and Blood isn't Church teaching then why was Fr Feeney excommunicated in 1953? Why did he not obey the summons to Rome to explain his position?That's odd. You failed to mention that Fr/ Fenney was reconciled, the excommunication lifted, and all without recanting anything. I'm sure it just slipped your mind.
Canon 737
§ 1. Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, ACTUALLY or at least in DESIRE is
necessary for all for salvation and is not validly conferred except by washing with true and natural
water along with the prescribed formula of words.
So without Baptism there can be no salvation, we agree on that. But the Church also provides the means to salvation as shown in Canon Law.
Yes, there were, at most, 2-4 Church Fathers who held BOD or BOB.
Okay, so this is just a lie..whoever wrote this literally just made it up :laugh1:
Please provide one council or one Pope teaching BOD or BOB to the universal Church
Please provide one council or one Pope teaching Guardian Angels to the universal Church. Are they real? Why do you believe those silly fairy tales? We have only one mediator you know.Guardian Angels have biblical basis, and AFAIK is something that can actually be said to be the 'unanimous and constant" teaching of Church Fathers
If a doctrine [sic] has been around since at least the Fathers, been taught by St. Thomas, and never condemned by Pope or Council, what is the problem!?
Are Sts. Cyprian and Alphonsus in error? Somebody should have corrected them in the course of Church History. If St. Thomas or Garrigou Lagrange didn't issue any correction, nobody will.
I would like to forgive those suffering from the "No true Scottsman" fallacy for attacking the doctrines, since it occasions the responses of those better prepared to defend the things we take for granted better than I do.
Guardian Angels have biblical basis, and AFAIK is something that can actually be said to be the 'unanimous and constant" teaching of Church FathersThis doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.
BOD is not doctrine. It was not taught by Our Lord, the Apostles, or unanimously by the Fathers, and has never been taught by a Council or by a Pope to the universal Church. It is an opinion, and one that I do believe will be condemned one day. There is still time
Have you read the actual doctrine I posted from Trent, Pope St. Leo the Great, Eugene IV and the Council of Florence? Please at least consider it..if you want, I can put it all in a single post for convenience.
It is not called the Boston Heresy for nothing. Pope St Pius X teaches Baptism of Desire and Blood in his Catchesim:The original catechism does not have these in it. It's an addition. Also it's called the Boston heresy because jews and freemasons like to lie and deceive people, that's why all the newspapers immediately all printed that the Church changed her teaching on EENS.
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
"He that shall lose his life for Me, shall find it." (Matt. 10:39) affirms Baptism of Blood by Our Lord Himself.
This doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.No the infallible statements made by the Church reject the very notion of both BoD and BoB, that means scripture does not teach it and any interpretation that does so is wrong and contrary to faith. You are ignoring the truth here, very few fathers believed in these errors, even St Gregory nαzιunsus who the Church titles 'theologian' outright rejected BoD.
There are Scripture quotes to support BoD in the materials the other posters provided.
BoD is a part of BoW doctrine as covered in all the sources you provided. All of the positive things they (Councils, etc.) have to say about BoW apply to the other two, as long as the nuances listed in the material the other posters gave are observed. If BoD were going to be condemned, it would have been condemned by Trent since it was so focused on justification and the Sacraments. The Council Fathers and Church Fathers were in a better position to know than anyone since, that's why nobody has condemned it up to now. The Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him.
The only thing that can be condemned is the Modernist interpretation/opinion that aims for universal salvation by Bod. That will be condemned one day, unless you consider it already condemned by St. Pius X who condemned Modernism.
This doesn't sound like a strong enough argument to discredit BoB and BoD, (or Guardian Angles). This is also just an opinion.Sure, it's not. But I don't rely on Guardian Angels to disprove BOD.
There are Scripture quotes to support BoD in the materials the other posters provided.
BoD is a part of BoW doctrine as covered in all the sources you provided. All of the positive things they (Councils, etc.) have to say about BoW apply to the other two, as long as the nuances listed in the material the other posters gave are observed. If BoD were going to be condemned, it would have been condemned by Trent since it was so focused on justification and the Sacraments. The Council Fathers and Church Fathers were in a better position to know than anyone since, that's why nobody has condemned it up to now. The Feeneyite opinion is the novelty. That's why it's named after him.
For, by baptism we are reborn spiritually; by confirmation we grow in grace and are strengthened in faith. Once reborn and strengthened, we are nourished by the food of the divine Eucharist. But if through sin we incur an illness of the soul, we are cured spiritually by penance. Spiritually also and bodily as suits the soul, by extreme unction. By orders the church is governed and spiritually multiplied; by matrimony it grows bodily.
All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected.
...
Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence
Trent, ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema
...
ON BAPTISM [remember, Trent is treating on the Sacraments, this is a part of Trent's decree on the Sacraments]
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
...
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema
It is not called the Boston Heresy for nothing. Pope St Pius X teaches Baptism of Desire and Blood in his Catchesim:The "Boston Heresy Case" actually was about EENS, not BOD :facepalm:
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
"He that shall lose his life for Me, shall find it." (Matt. 10:39) affirms Baptism of Blood by Our Lord Himself.
[The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."Unity of the ecclesiastical body", meaning members. Who are members? Those who have been baptised with true and natural water in the form "I baptize you in the name of the Father, etc." as per Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence
Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water
The "Boston Heresy Case" actually was about EENS, not BOD :facepalm:
Not only that, but here again we have a clown that equates something in a Catechism with a teaching of the Magisterium, where it might as well be a dogmatic definition, so that disagreeing with a Catechism constitutes "heresy". Yeah, well, Irish Catechisms denied papal infallibility, and Msgr. Fenton wrecks the Baltimore catechisms and has little good to say about it. As for the St. Pius X one, the earliest version, the one that he was known to have written, makes no mention of BoD. Then the thing underwent myriad revisions, especially after he became Pope, and it's unknown when the BoD stuff made it in there or whether it even had his approval.Your claim that ‘the earliest St. Pius X Catechism had no BoD, and that later revisions containing it may not have had his approval’ does not hold up to docuмentary scrutiny. The catechetical texts published and used under St. Pius X do include the explicit teaching on Baptism of Desire, and St. Pius X himself formally approved and prescribed an official short catechism for the Diocese and Province of Rome on 18 October 1912. There is no reliable evidence whatsoever that the Baptism-of-Desire formulations were added to the official editions during his pontificate without his knowledge or approval.
You ignored all the evidence that was contrary to your false beliefs and once again falsely as attributed rejection of BoD as an invention of Fr Feeney. But clearly St Gregory denied it, so is St Gregory a feeneyite? Or are you going to call us Gregoryites?St Gregory argued against Baptism of Desire but accepted Baptism of Blood.
St Gregory argued against Baptism of Desire but accepted Baptism of Blood.
St. Gregory nαzιanzen, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century: Oration XXXIX, Oration on the Holy Lights: "I know also a Fourth Baptism--that by Martyrdom and blood, which also Christ himself underwent; and this one is far more august than all the others, inasmuch as it cannot be defiled by after-stains."
It was way after St Gregory's time during Council of Trent that Baptism of Desire and Blood was made doctrine:
Your claim that ‘the earliest St. Pius X Catechism had no BoD, and that later revisions containing it may not have had his approval’ does not hold up to docuмentary scrutiny. The catechetical texts published and used under St. Pius X do include the explicit teaching on Baptism of Desire, and St. Pius X himself formally approved and prescribed an official short catechism for the Diocese and Province of Rome on 18 October 1912. There is no reliable evidence whatsoever that the Baptism-of-Desire formulations were added to the official editions during his pontificate without his knowledge or approval.The Catechism, being fallible, actually contradicts EENS dogma:
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,” Q. 27: “Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.”The Catechism affirms that there is no salvation outside the Church, and then proceeds to say there is salvation outside the Church! It says that those who are outside the Church and seperated from the body of the Church can be on the way of salvation..meanwhile, Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence infallibly teaches:
...
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,” Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”
[The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
...
Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water,
The Catechism, being fallible, actually contradicts EENS dogma:How badly did they mess with Pius X's catechism? Jeepers.
The Catechism affirms that there is no salvation outside the Church, and then proceeds to say there is salvation outside the Church! It says that those who are outside the Church and seperated from the body of the Church can be on the way of salvation..meanwhile, Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence infallibly teaches:
How badly did they mess with Pius X's catechism? Jeepers.
Trent, Decree on Justification
CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
Trent, Decree on Justification
CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
In depth video and article regarding Cornelius:
Whoever wrote this at Trent must have been looking at this very Scripture passage when he wrote it.
24 The day after that, they reached Caesarea, where Cornelius was awaiting them;
Here's a canonized BoB Saint I found, I'll keep looking for more.
Jan 7th, At Melitene in ancient Armenia, Saint Polyeuctus, martyr: as a soldier, forced by the edict of Emperor Decius to sacrifice to the gods, he tore the statues to pieces and for this he suffered many torments, until he was beheaded and baptized in his own blood.
Whilst the Christians, especially those in the East, were suffering persecution under the Emperors Decius and Valerian, there were two men very friendly, Polyeuctus and Nearchus by name. Now Nearchus was a Christian, but Polyeuctus was a heathen. But when Decius and Valerian could not be satiated with the blood of the saints, they issued an edict that those Christians who would sacrifice to the gods, should be favored by the majesty of the empire, but that those who refused should be cruelly punished. Which things being heard, Nearchus, who desired to be dissolved and to be with Christ, lamented because his comrade, whom he loved as a second self, would be left in peril of eternal damnation.
Going therefore to his friend, Polyeuctus, he announced to him that on the morrow their friendship must come to an end. And when he answered that death alone could terminate this, Nearchus said, "You speak the truth, we are about to be separated by death." And he showed him the imperial edict. Then Polyeuctus narrated to Nearchus how Christ had appeared to him in vision, and had taken off his dirty vestment, together with his military harness, and had thrown over him a gorgeous silk robe, linking it at his shoulder with a golden brooch, and had mounted him on a winged horse. Hearing this, Nearchus was glad, and having expounded the vision, and instructed Polyeuctus more fully in the faith, his friend believed perfectly, and began to thirst for martyrdom.
Now when Polyeuctus declared himself openly to be a Christian, and rebuked idolatry, being tried by the persecutors, he was for a long time tortured. And when he had been a long while scourged with rods, the tormentors were weary, and endeavored to persuade him with bland speeches and promises, to return to the worship of the gods. But he, remaining immovable in the confession of the Lord, and deriding them, was more furiously beaten.
Then came his wife and only son, and she filled the place with her cries, and held out to him his son, alleging his marriage ties, with many tears and sighs, and labored to call the saint from martyrdom, by the thoughts of his son, of his wealth, and of his friends. But he, divinely inspired, could not be separated from Christ by any temptations, but all the more exhorted his wife to desert her idols and believe in Christ.
Now when the governors saw that the constancy of the martyr was not to be shaken, they pronounced capital sentence against him. And when the martyr heard this, he gave thanks, and praising God, was led to the place of execution, confirming the faithful with his holy exhortations, so that not a few of the unbelievers were converted. Then, turning to the Blessed Nearchus, he announced to him that he should follow him according to mutual agreement; and bidding him farewell, died a glorious death.
Not only that, but here again we have a clown that equates something in a Catechism with a teaching of the Magisterium, where it might as well be a dogmatic definition, so that disagreeing with a Catechism constitutes "heresy". Yeah, well, Irish Catechisms denied papal infallibility, and Msgr. Fenton wrecks the Baltimore catechisms and has little good to say about it. As for the St. Pius X one, the earliest version, the one that he was known to have written, makes no mention of BoD. Then the thing underwent myriad revisions, especially after he became Pope, and it's unknown when the BoD stuff made it in there or whether it even had his approval.Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter of September 8, 1899, to the Bishops and clergy of France,…wrote: “This work is remarkable at once for the richness and exactness of its doctrine, and for the elegance of its style; it is a precious summary of all theology, both dogmatic and moral. He who understands it well, will have always at his service those aids by which a priest is enabled to preach with fruit, to acquit himself worthily of the important ministry of the confessional and of the direction of souls, and will be in a position to refute the objections of unbelievers.”
No one is saying it's "heretical". BOD has never been condemned as heresy, it has been permitted to be held as an opinion.
It's evident that alot of Feeneyites and the Dimond brothers try to discredit the Catechism for having "contradictions" or "inaccuracies" to further their denial of Baptism of Desire and Blood. The Catechism is the standard by which the Faith is to be understood and believed. If it were heretical it would have been condemned by the popes long ago.
No one is saying it's "heretical". BOD has never been condemned as heresy, it has been permitted to be held as an opinion.He saw it, he won't answer because like all BoD adherents he is dishonest.
The Catechism of Trent was promulgated for parish priests, and it actually had notes on what was and wasn't necessary to teach the faithful. BOD was not something that was noted as to be taught to the faithful. They were to be taught, simply, that Baptism was necessary for salvation
St. Peter Canisius, Doctor of the Church, who was actually at the Council of Trent, did not teach BOD in his Summa Doctrinae Christianae.
I'm not sure if you saw my challenge: Find one Ecuмenical Council teaching BOD, or one Pope teaching BOD to the universal Church
POPE INNOCENT IIIPrivate letters. Pope Innocent III also believed that circuмcision removed Original Sin..are you going to believe that as well?
Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:
COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)If you do not desire the sacraments, you cannot obtain justification. Who's denying that?
Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):
“If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”
Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4):Justification requires both the laver of regeneration (sacrament of Baptism) and also the desire for it. Trent, immediately after, says AS IT IS WRITTEN: John 3:5. What does "as it is written" mean, save for "as it is written"?
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
Trent, Sixth Session, Decree on Justification, Chapter XIV
Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament
Fourteenth Session, On the Sacrament of Penance, Chapter IV
The Synod teaches moreover, that, although it sometimes happen that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament be actually received, the said reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament which is included therein.
It is also incorporated into law:And? Canon law does not teach the universal Church the Faith.
1917 CODE OF CANON LAW On Ecclesiastical Burial (Canon 1239. 2)
“Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.” — The Sacred Canons
by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.
Commentary on the Code:
“The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.”
He saw it, he won't answer because like all BoD adherents he is dishonest.The Council of Trent does not say baptism of desire, it says JUSTIFICATION.
Here's an honest, non-emotional answer.
The Council that teaches BOD is Trent, because that's the one that treats of it the most thoroughly.
Pope Pius IV teaches it because he promulgated Trent.
All of the popes after that let Trent and Pius IV and every subsequent catechism do the talking; just like they did on all the other sacraments and justification and all the rest of the topics it covered.
This invites a certain counter challenge:
Where is any bishop alive or dead who ever held the position you're advancing since Trent?
I seem to remember there was a thread about that once. Even if you could find one or two, they will be neither Novus Order, nor main line traditional. They would have to be so fringe of the fringe that you might as well cite Pope Michael.
Nobody believes this.
It's like some protestant who comes up with an interpretation of Scripture that no one else ever has, and is trying to convince his friends that he's made a great break through.
It's like the way Leo has had a look at everything said about the titles of Mary and come to the opposite conclusion that everybody else has ever had. (but he gets more traction)
The only people who believe this are people who consider themselves experts, or those who look up to them.
CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
He saw it, he won't answer because like all BoD adherents he is dishonest.It's honestly very disheartening. You take the time and effort to respond to specific points and these people never, ever do the same with yours. They just move on to their next Catechism quote, private papal letter, or opinion of another fallible man. Then you respond to those, they ignore it and move on to the next fallible opinion.
I have a bunch of Holiday stuff going on, so I can't give this thread the attention I would like to.I don't think there is any indication that Paul was taken to the Third Heaven prior to meeting Ananias.
But, while I'm thinking about it,
Are we supposed to believe that from the time St. Paul was taken up to the Third Heaven on the road to Damascus, until he finished his first meeting with Ananias that he was NOT in a state of Grace?
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered into the house. And laying his hands upon him, he said: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus hath sent me, he that appeared to thee in the way as thou camest, that thou mayest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost.God sent Ananias to cure Paul's physical blindness, and so that Paul could be justified
9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales: and he received his sight. And rising up, he was baptized.