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Author Topic: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD  (Read 2590 times)

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Offline jerm

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MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
« on: March 28, 2020, 02:39:41 PM »
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  • For the past few days, I've been trying to get to the bottom of the BoD issue, which has inevitably led me even more to MHFM. I was talking to one of their supporters on Twitter about St. Thomas and St. Bellarmine's interpretations of BoD, which accept EENS as well as the water baptism as the instrumental cause of salvation for the deceased catechumen, via the votum. If I'm not mistaken, this means that the catechumen's explicit vow to obtain baptism is the salvific element and equivalent to partaking in the water baptism. Please correct me if I'm wrong- I don't totally understand it.

    However, they sent me this image which apparently not only disproves that a deceased catechumen can be saved, but proves that such a belief is heresy. 

    I see a few problems with this argument. Doesn't the BoD supporter state that the votum towards the baptism itself, which to them is equivalent to the water baptism itself, is what provides the merits of justification? 

    I sent a message to Ladislaus about this, but I've realized that, shockingly, he's not the only Catholic on this site with experience with this stuff. Also, it's a bit r00d for me to spam a single busy man with all of my theological questions. (Sorry Lad.)

    Offline donkath

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 12:31:08 AM »
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  • Jerm:  What does MHFM mean?

    I am sure if you take the trouble to read the 'The Loyolas and the Cabots' pdf. file (previously posted on CI) you will work things out for yourself.

    God bless and guide you as He surely will.

    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 06:39:47 AM »
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  • Jerm:  What does MHFM mean?

    I am sure if you take the trouble to read the 'The Loyolas and the Cabots' pdf. file (previously posted on CI) you will work things out for yourself.

    God bless and guide you as He surely will.
    Most Holy Family Monastery - they're a sedevacantist group, but they're quite well known for Catholic apologetics and attacks on Vatican 2. One of their main bones to pick is BOD.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 07:20:44 AM »
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  • “However, they sent me this image which apparently not only disproves that a deceased catechumen can be saved, but proves that such a belief is heresy.”
    :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 07:35:14 AM »
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  • Sorry, I've been a bit distracted, and the answer to a PM like that could be very lengthy, so I hadn't had the time/opportunity to respond.

    Even in a BoD, one MUST hold that Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification, operating via the votum for it.  That votum would in fact just be the means by which the graces of Baptism are applied to the soul.  To say otherwise would be to assert that people can save them selves by their own merits, ex opere operantis ... which contradicts the essence of Trent's teaching regarding the Sacraments ... and is in fact Pelagianism in a nutshell.  This is precisely what that "Chapter 8" in your citation above says.

    That is why St. Robert Bellarmine and the post-Tridentine theologians were very careful to state that the souls who are justified though BoD receive Baptism in voto ... not that they are saved without the Sacrament or independent of it ... since Trent dogmatically taught the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  To say that someone can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism is indeed heresy.

    Ironically, it's this distinction made by these theologians that the Dimonds also miss in alleging that BoD (even that of St. Robert Bellarmine) is heresy.  Indeed, if someone said that people can be saved without the Sacrament, that would be heresy, a direct contradiction of Trent.

    Now, since the first generation or two after Trent, the language became sloppy, to the point that most modern BoDers do hold a heretical view of BoD.  But there is a view which, when properly articulated, does not lead to heresy.

    Now, I do not believe in BoD.  I don't see a need for it, since God's providence is not bound by "impossibility".  As St. Augustine taught, it is "not Catholic" to suppose that God could be prevented from bringing the Sacrament to His elect.  Also, I hold that the character of Baptism is essential for salvation, since it is in fact the supernatural capacity to see God as He is (i.e. the beatific vision), which we lack the faculty to do by nature (similar to how a priest is transformed by the character of the priesthood).  But to say that it is inherently heretical is wrong.  One can still find way to maintain the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism while holding a certain form of BoD.

    This is in fact the distinction between the two different understandings of Trent.  Those of us who do not believe in Baptism of Desire hold that the votum is a necessary (but insufficient) cause of justification, while the other (more popular view) is that the votum is a sufficient cause of justification.  I argue that Trent's language of "cannot without" clearly teaches necessary cause rather than sufficient cause.


    Offline jerm

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #5 on: March 31, 2020, 10:13:29 PM »
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  • Sorry, I've been a bit distracted, and the answer to a PM like that could be very lengthy, so I hadn't had the time/opportunity to respond.

    Even in a BoD, one MUST hold that Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification, operating via the votum for it.  That votum would in fact just be the means by which the graces of Baptism are applied to the soul.  To say otherwise would be to assert that people can save them selves by their own merits, ex opere operantis ... which contradicts the essence of Trent's teaching regarding the Sacraments ... and is in fact Pelagianism in a nutshell.  This is precisely what that "Chapter 8" in your citation above says.

    That is why St. Robert Bellarmine and the post-Tridentine theologians were very careful to state that the souls who are justified though BoD receive Baptism in voto ... not that they are saved without the Sacrament or independent of it ... since Trent dogmatically taught the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  To say that someone can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism is indeed heresy.

    Ironically, it's this distinction made by these theologians that the Dimonds also miss in alleging that BoD (even that of St. Robert Bellarmine) is heresy.  Indeed, if someone said that people can be saved without the Sacrament, that would be heresy, a direct contradiction of Trent.

    Now, since the first generation or two after Trent, the language became sloppy, to the point that most modern BoDers do hold a heretical view of BoD.  But there is a view which, when properly articulated, does not lead to heresy.

    Now, I do not believe in BoD.  I don't see a need for it, since God's providence is not bound by "impossibility".  As St. Augustine taught, it is "not Catholic" to suppose that God could be prevented from bringing the Sacrament to His elect.  Also, I hold that the character of Baptism is essential for salvation, since it is in fact the supernatural capacity to see God as He is (i.e. the beatific vision), which we lack the faculty to do by nature (similar to how a priest is transformed by the character of the priesthood).  But to say that it is inherently heretical is wrong.  One can still find way to maintain the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism while holding a certain form of BoD.

    This is in fact the distinction between the two different understandings of Trent.  Those of us who do not believe in Baptism of Desire hold that the votum is a necessary (but insufficient) cause of justification, while the other (more popular view) is that the votum is a sufficient cause of justification.  I argue that Trent's language of "cannot without" clearly teaches necessary cause rather than sufficient cause.
    But wait, doesn't Trent say that one must be born again of water, and anathematize anyone who says the contrary? 
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

    This would imply BoD to be a heresy, no? I suppose a counter-argument one could make is that it is normally necessary, but that a catechumen who dies before getting baptized is in an extraordinary situation where he/she gets the laver of regeneration via his/her votum, and the desire for it. For Trent also says confession is necessary, but true contrition can suffice in certain severe situations.

    Worth thinking about. I am a bit scared of deviating from the Brothers on this major issue, because I do believe them to be real Benedictines and the most orthodox monastery out there today. But, they're also wrong about things like sedeprivationism, so clearly just because they say something doesn't make it correct.

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #6 on: May 19, 2025, 06:17:16 AM »
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  • Sadly MHFM would wish to attack st Thomas before reinterpreting him, no, st Thomas did not neesecarily teach BoB or BoD in the sense that the moderns do, did the Dimonds ever think. That maybe st Thomas was saying they would be baptised by angels? Or that he meant that it would keep them alive until the time of baptism.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #7 on: May 19, 2025, 06:31:23 AM »
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  • Sorry, I've been a bit distracted, and the answer to a PM like that could be very lengthy, so I hadn't had the time/opportunity to respond.

    Even in a BoD, one MUST hold that Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification, operating via the votum for it.  That votum would in fact just be the means by which the graces of Baptism are applied to the soul.  To say otherwise would be to assert that people can save them selves by their own merits, ex opere operantis ... which contradicts the essence of Trent's teaching regarding the Sacraments ... and is in fact Pelagianism in a nutshell.  This is precisely what that "Chapter 8" in your citation above says.

    That is why St. Robert Bellarmine and the post-Tridentine theologians were very careful to state that the souls who are justified though BoD receive Baptism in voto ... not that they are saved without the Sacrament or independent of it ... since Trent dogmatically taught the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  To say that someone can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism is indeed heresy.

    Ironically, it's this distinction made by these theologians that the Dimonds also miss in alleging that BoD (even that of St. Robert Bellarmine) is heresy.  Indeed, if someone said that people can be saved without the Sacrament, that would be heresy, a direct contradiction of Trent.

    Now, since the first generation or two after Trent, the language became sloppy, to the point that most modern BoDers do hold a heretical view of BoD.  But there is a view which, when properly articulated, does not lead to heresy.

    Now, I do not believe in BoD.  I don't see a need for it, since God's providence is not bound by "impossibility".  As St. Augustine taught, it is "not Catholic" to suppose that God could be prevented from bringing the Sacrament to His elect.  Also, I hold that the character of Baptism is essential for salvation, since it is in fact the supernatural capacity to see God as He is (i.e. the beatific vision), which we lack the faculty to do by nature (similar to how a priest is transformed by the character of the priesthood).  But to say that it is inherently heretical is wrong.  One can still find way to maintain the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism while holding a certain form of BoD.

    This is in fact the distinction between the two different understandings of Trent.  Those of us who do not believe in Baptism of Desire hold that the votum is a necessary (but insufficient) cause of justification, while the other (more popular view) is that the votum is a sufficient cause of justification.  I argue that Trent's language of "cannot without" clearly teaches necessary cause rather than sufficient cause.
    What about Florence stating the sacraments don't profit for salvation unless you are in the body of Christ, which requires baptism... So in voto wouldn't work here?


    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: MHFM and the Thomistic Understanding of BoD
    « Reply #8 on: May 19, 2025, 07:33:50 AM »
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  • But wait, doesn't Trent say that one must be born again of water, and anathematize anyone who says the contrary?
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

    This would imply BoD to be a heresy, no? I suppose a counter-argument one could make is that it is normally necessary, but that a catechumen who dies before getting baptized is in an extraordinary situation where he/she gets the laver of regeneration via his/her votum, and the desire for it. For Trent also says confession is necessary, but true contrition can suffice in certain severe situations.

    Worth thinking about. I am a bit scared of deviating from the Brothers on this major issue, because I do believe them to be real Benedictines and the most orthodox monastery out there today. But, they're also wrong about things like sedeprivationism, so clearly just because they say something doesn't make it correct.
    The brothers are wrong on race, America and st malachy they aren’t some infallible prophets from heaven, yes they do get many things right but that doesn’t mean you should be scared to deviate from them as if they were a rule of faith,