Author Topic: Membership in and Visibility of the Church (Read 6197 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #85 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:39:55 PM »

Quote from: Mama ChaCha

Hmm.

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I always thought that the Church should mind her flock and not pontificate (pun intended) on the fates of others.

She minds her flock and tries to get others to convert. You are correct that she does not pontificate on the fates of others in regards to judging their subjective culpability. She claims no one, apart from Judas is in Hell and all the canonized Saints are in Heaven. The rest she does not pontificate on. Most Feeneyites pontificate on it and quite strenuously.
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It was my, probably wrong, working assumption that to be given graces outside of the Church is an extraordinary grace and is possible, though like deathbed conversions, shouldn't be counted on or taken as a given because the Church couldn't even be a little assured of the spiritual attitudes of anyone outside of the faith.

Actual graces work quite regularly outside the Church as helps to get people inside of her. Sanctifying grace can only be obtained within the Church. You are quite correct again. We should NEVER depend on a deathbed conversion. Ours souls are not a game. We cannot fool God and should not play around with Him as if we can find a glitch in His system and slide into Heaven. If we sin our entire lives unrepentantly it is VERY unlikely that we will sincerely convert on our deathbed. We can have the last rites administered and appear very sincere and yet reserve a very special place for us in Hell. And those non-Catholics who lived in aversion with God and die that way will surely be damned as will those guilty (culpable) of ignorance of the faith, of rejecting Baptism, of preferring and doing their own will above that of God's will.

Good points!

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #86 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:50:21 PM »

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Actually Fr. Journet's use of the terms "body" and "soul" with reference to the Catholic Church is such as to imply that the Church is not really a coetus hominum, an assembly or group of men at all. "It is easy," he tells us, "to define the body of the Church from the point of view of the Church's efficient, formal, or final cause. We shall say that it is the visible and outward bearing of men (le comportement visible et exterieur des homes) - that is, their visible being, their visible activity, their visible working." This is the reality which is moved by the motion of the Holy Ghost and of Our Lord Himself, informed by the outpouring of His capital grace, and raised to the very final cause of the economy of grace. Fenton

Is there any error above?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #87 on:** February 06, 2014, 05:21:10 AM »

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It is important to note that it is not the men themselves, but their conduct or activity which is said to be the "body" of the Catholic Church, the element which, together with the "soul" and vivified by that "soul," makes up the Church itself. Fr. Journet's further elucidations show that he takes this concept very seriously. He tells us "that there are sinners in the Church but that they do not bring their sin into it. The Church is not without sinners but it is without sin, 'glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without blemish. [Cf. Eph., 5:27.] Its boundaries run across our heart to divide the light there from the darkness." [Journet, op. cit., p. 1103.]

The language used by Fr. Journet in this connection is figurative in the extreme. In itself, and in its context, it is incompatible with the notion that the Church is properly and definitely a coetus hominum. And, if the ideas underlying this language be completely acceptable, then it would seem to follow that the old definition of the Church as the congregation or convocation fidelium could never have been more than approximately accurate. A congregation or society is a reunion of men and not simply a summation of their conduct. Fenton

Does everyone follow?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #88 on:** February 07, 2014, 10:48:09 AM »

Moreover, in his book, Fr. Journet tends to represent the Church more as an institution towards which good men tend automatically than as a society with a genuine and really urgent universal missionary commission. He seems to depict it primarily as a center towards which the supernatural life of grace in the world is meant to converge more or less of its own accord.

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In the order of salvation, gathered close to Christ who favors it with his contact, it is the point of condensation of an immense cloudiness, the solid center which, moreover, attracts, sustains and draws into its wake more or less closely millions of men scattered like atoms throughout space and time. [ibid., p. 1102.]

The missionary commission of the Catholic Church is certainly understressed in this concept, [Note from J.G. - No need to convert others. Sound familiar?] and in the one brought out in the following paragraph, which forms the conclusion to Fr. Journet's treatise on the necessity of the Church. Fenton

bowler · « **Reply #89 on:** February 07, 2014, 10:53:34 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

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It is important to note that it is not the men themselves, but their conduct or activity which is said to be the "body" of the Catholic Church, the element which, together with the "soul" and vivified by that "soul," makes up the Church itself.

Does everyone follow?

Hogwash!