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Author Topic: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire  (Read 4695 times)

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Offline aryzia

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2018, 10:07:06 AM »
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  • Happenby: Nope.  In fact, its necessary for the person representing the child to desire the sacrament on behalf of the child.

    Reply: Incorrect. The person representing the child (the godparents) professes the faith for the child; they do not desire baptism for him.

    If it were necessary for a child to have a representative "desire baptism" on their behalf, the baptism of an infant with no one but the minister of the sacrament present would be invalid.  What we see is that your personal interpretation of the canons of Trent is leading you from one error to another.
    Wrong. The person representing the child must affirm they desire baptism for the child. Or it doesn't happen. Have you never been to a baptism? Or weren't you paying attention? The Church does not baptized the unwilling.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #46 on: April 23, 2018, 10:07:41 AM »
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  • Readers of dogmas work from the foundation of dogma. With readers of dogmas like myself, if you want to convince me about some subject that has been thoroughly defined, like EENS, you have to debate with dogma that is clear. This because dogma is the final judgement on a matter previously in dispute and must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. DENY THEM.



    On the other hand, with interpreters of dogma, the actually dogmas mean nothing, they must be interpreted by "an expert". From there they go seeking teachers according to their own beliefs. As anyone who is honest with themselves will see, these experts (Novus Ordo, SSPX, CMRI) have today concluded that the Athanasian Creed does not say that one must believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. If you want proof that dogmas MEAN NOTHING to them, and the Denial of dogma, there is no better example.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #47 on: April 23, 2018, 10:14:09 AM »
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  • Honestly, I do not see why any strict EENSer debates with these deniers of the need for baptism, the need for desire for baptism, the need to be a Catholic, the need to believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. Their defending of BOD of the catechumen is just a smoke screen for total unbelief in EENS.

    I have a family to take care of, I do not have the inclination or time to waste on these people who are so embarrassed of what they believe that they do not come out upfront and declare what they really believe, that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism, without any desire to be baptized or Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Holy Trinity.

    Cut to the chase!
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #48 on: April 23, 2018, 11:04:21 AM »
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  • Again, for the 4th time, it doesn't suffice by itself, but is necessary.  You can't have something in actu without first having it in potentia.  In other words, the Baptismal character is a necessary but not sufficient cause.
    I cited St. Thomas and Fr. Fenton teaching that the character is a spiritual potency to receive the Eucharist.  If you reject this, and instead maintain that it is a potency to receive sanctifying grace, produce an authoritative source who teaches it.  Good luck.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #49 on: April 23, 2018, 11:11:19 AM »
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  • Well, you disagree with St. Alphonsus on that one; he teaches that the godparents vicariously desire and intend to receive the Sacrament for him.
    The validity of infant baptism is not dependent upon the godparents representing the child by desiring baptism for them.  If it were, an infant baptism that took place without godparents would be invalid.  Is that what you're suggesting?
    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 11:12:11 AM »
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  • Honestly, I do not see why any strict EENSer debates with these deniers of the need for baptism, the need for desire for baptism, the need to be a Catholic, the need to believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. Their defending of BOD of the catechumen is just a smoke screen for total unbelief in EENS.

    Correct, the ardent promotion of BoD and denunciation of "Feeneyism" has always been driven by a crusade against EENS in general rather than by sympathy for the rare case of a catechumen who would die before Baptism.  Sure, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine dealt with the subject ... in a couple paragraphs from thousands of pages of writing.  But for a lot of the Cushingites today it's become their life's mission to promote BoD.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 11:29:37 AM »
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  • As for BoD and BoB, his position was that since we cannot know the state of a soul of a dying person because we cannot know his interior disposition (only God can discern the thought of our hearts), what becomes of such souls who have not been baptized is left to the providence of God. It's not OUR DECISION what happens. It's God's decision.
    .
    BoB and BoD advocates like "RomanTheo" above are wont to rip that prerogative of God away from Him and make it their own.

    That is absurd.  Professing the Church's doctrine concerning baptism of desire, as understood and explained by every theologian since the Council of Trent, is not ripping any prerogative away from God. On the contrary, claiming that God cannot save a person who has not been baptized by water is both removing the "decision" from God, and restricting His ability to justify soul by requiring a created reality, upon which He is dependent.  Such an idea subjects the Creator to a creature - the infinite to a finite.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
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  • Correct, the ardent promotion of BoD and denunciation of "Feeneyism" has always been driven by a crusade against EENS in general rather than by sympathy for the rare case of a catechumen who would die before Baptism.  Sure, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine dealt with the subject ... in a couple paragraphs from thousands of pages of writing.  But for a lot of the Cushingites today it's become their life's mission to promote BoD.
    Do you see how they avoid mentioning their real belief, this Theo character must be the same guy that used the avatar of The Cure of Ars. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 04:50:48 PM »
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  • Do you see how they avoid mentioning their real belief, this Theo character must be the same guy that used the avatar of The Cure of Ars.

    Yeah, this could quite possibly be LoT again.  He's signed up under a couple different names over time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 04:52:59 PM »
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  • and restricting His ability to justify soul by requiring a created reality, upon which He is dependent.  Such an idea subjects the Creator to a creature - the infinite to a finite.

    Idiot.  WE are not restricting anything.  We're talking about the restrictions that God has placed on us, not the other way around, and understanding the conditions for salvation that He has laid down.  If God said that we could only be saved by smearing Jello Pudding on the tips of our noses, then we would be bound by that.

    Offline Green

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #55 on: April 25, 2018, 08:35:20 PM »
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  • one is obliged to confess even when one is Perfectly Contrite and before recieving communion. baptism of desire doesnt confer the sacramental character 


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #56 on: August 10, 2018, 10:37:14 PM »
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  • Do you see how they avoid mentioning their real belief, this Theo character must be the same guy that used the avatar of The Cure of Ars.
    .
    Interesting, as soon as you pegged him as LoT he disappeared from this subforum and hasn't been back. 
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #57 on: August 10, 2018, 11:45:13 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15081.htm

    On the Soul and its Origin by St. Augustine

    Chapter 11


    Quote
    Accordingly, the thief, who was no follower of the Lord previous to the cross, but His confessor upon the cross, from whose case a presumption is sometimes taken, or attempted, against the sacrament of baptism, is reckoned by St. Cyprian among the martyrs who are baptized in their own blood, as happens to many unbaptized persons in times of hot persecution. For to the fact that he confessed the crucified Lord so much weight is attributed and so much availing value assigned by Him who knows how to weigh and value such evidence, as if he had been crucified for the Lord. Then, indeed, his faith on the cross flourished when that of the disciples failed, and that without recovery if it had not bloomed again by the resurrection of Him before the terror of whose death it had drooped. They despaired of Him when dying — he hoped when joined with Him in dying; they fled from the author of life — he prayed to his companion in punishment; they grieved as for the death of a man — he believed that after death He was to be a king; they forsook the sponsor of their salvation — he honoured the companion of His cross.

    There was discovered in him the full measure of a martyr, who then believed in Christ when they fell away who were destined to be martyrs. All this, indeed, was manifest to the eyes of the Lord, who at once bestowed so great felicity on one who, though not baptized, was yet washed clean in the blood, as it were, of martyrdom. But even of ourselves, who cannot reflect with how much faith, how much hope, how much charity he might have undergone death for Christ when living, who begged life of Him when dying? Besides all this, there is the circuмstance, which is not incredibly reported, that the thief who then believed as he hung by the side of the crucified Lord was sprinkled, as in a most sacred baptism, with the water which issued from the wound of the Saviour's side. I say nothing of the fact that nobody can prove, since none of us knows that he had not been baptized previous to his condemnation. However, let every man take this in the sense he may prefer; only let no rule about baptism affecting the Saviour's own precept be taken from this example of the thief; and let no one promise for the case of unbaptized infants, between damnation and the kingdom of heaven, some middle place of rest and happiness, such as he pleases and where he pleases. For this is what the heresy of Pelagius promised them: he neither fears damnation for infants, whom he does not regard as having any original sin, nor does he give them the hope of the kingdom of heaven, since they do not approach to the sacrament of baptism. As for this man, however, although he acknowledges that infants are involved in original sin, he yet boldly promises them, even without baptism, the kingdom of heaven. This even the Pelagians had not the boldness to do, though asserting infants to be absolutely without sin. See, then, what a network of presumptuous opinion he entangles, unless he regret having committed such views to writing.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #58 on: August 10, 2018, 11:58:58 PM »
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  • Everything about BoD revolves around speculation as to what would or would not be "fair" for God to do ... which does nothing more than open up a "vortex of confusion", as St. Augustine called it, once he had come to his senses and rejected his earlier youthful speculation regarding BoD.  He rejected it after many years of grappling with the Pelagians, and realizing that BoD led inexorably to Pelagianism.

    I'm not so certain right now how that passage is to be taken, after reading earlier from the same treatise.

    On the Soul and its Origin

    Book II

    Chapter 17

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15082.htm


    Quote
    The new-fangled Pelagian heretics have been most justly condemned by the authority of catholic councils and of the Apostolic See, on the ground of their having dared to give to unbaptized infants a place of rest and salvation, even apart from the kingdom of heaven. This they would not have dared to do, if they did not deny their having original sin, and the need of its remission by the sacrament of baptism. This man, however, professes the catholic belief on this point, admitting that infants are tied in the bonds of original sin, and yet he releases them from these bonds without the laver of regeneration, and after death, in his compassion, he admits them into paradise; while, with a still ampler compassion, he introduces them after the resurrection even to the kingdom of heaven. Such compassion did Saul see fit to assume when he spared the king whom God commanded to be slain; 1 Samuel 15:9 deservedly, however, was his disobedient compassion, or (if you prefer it) his compassionate disobedience, reprobated and condemned, that man may be on his guard against extending mercy to his fellow-man, in opposition to the sentence of Him by whom man was made.

    Truth, by the mouth of Itself incarnate, proclaims as if in a voice of thunder: "Unless a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 And in order to except martyrs from this sentence, to whose lot it has fallen to be slain for the name of Christ before being washed in the baptism of Christ, He says in another passage, "He that loses his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 And so far from promising the abolition of original sin to any one who has not been regenerated in the laver of Christian faith, the apostle exclaims, "By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation." Romans 5:18 And as a counterbalance against this condemnation, the Lord exhibits the help of His salvation alone, saying, "He that believes, and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

    Now the mystery of this believing in the case of infants is completely effected by the response of the sureties by whom they are taken to baptism; and unless this be effected, they all pass by the offense of one into condemnation. And yet, in opposition to such clear declarations uttered by the Truth, forth marches before all men a vanity which is more foolish than pitiful, and says: Not only do infants not pass into condemnation, though no laver of Christian faith absolves them from the chain of original sin, but they even after death have an intermediate enjoyment of the felicities of paradise, and after the resurrection they shall possess even the happiness of the kingdom of heaven. Now, would this man dare to say all this in opposition to the firmly-established catholic faith, if he had not presumptuously undertaken to solve a question which transcends his powers touching the origin of the soul?

    On the Soul and its Origin

    Book III

    Chapter 13

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15083.htm



    Quote
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that "they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined." There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: "We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ." Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    I think after reading the earlier chapter from book II, "whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism" does not necessarily mean baptism of water, when reading this from St. Augustine, the emphasis is on "the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass."

    The vortex of confusion seems to be in cases where it is purposed that God has ordained that such and such an event is to occur, but then to say it has not occurred. Not that God has willed some event, and we resist Him, but rather by the foreknowledge of God some event is to occur, but doesn't. Or rather predestination of some event cannot be overturned.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.