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Author Topic: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire  (Read 10966 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 06:26:59 AM »
Chances are the hypothetical catechumen does not even exist in reality anyway.

Agreed.  Even if such a thing were a hypothetical possibility, there's no proof that anyone has ever been saved in this manner.  Nor is it necessary, since God is never prevented by "impossibility" from bringing the Sacrament to any of His elect.  We have numerous examples of God working miracles to do just that, raising the dead back to life so they could be baptized, or miraculously providing water.  If someone were to be saved by BoD and not able to receive the Sacrament, we would have to further hypothesize and speculate about why God would will that they be saved in this manner ... when He could just as easily have provided the Sacrament.  Everything about BoD revolves around speculation as to what would or would not be "fair" for God to do ... which does nothing more than open up a "vortex of confusion", as St. Augustine called it, once he had come to his senses and rejected his earlier youthful speculation regarding BoD.  He rejected it after many years of grappling with the Pelagians, and realizing that BoD led inexorably to Pelagianism.

If God has willed to save someone this way, then glory to God.  But, otherwise, speculation about this leads to nothing good.  It undermines belief in the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation, about the nature of the Church, ultimately reducing salvation and supernatural faith to a matter of "sincerity" and "good will" ... and leads us right up to Vatican II.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 06:44:58 AM »
To be fair, Fr. Feeney did not wage a crusade rejecting BoD or BoB. Those were not his concern.
His concern was defending extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Period.

Precisely.  And I too consider BoD proper to be a matter of secondary importance.  I have no serious fight, except a personal disagreement, with someone who holds to a Thomistic or Bellarminist BoD ... i.e., so long as they don't bring all the usual heretical baggage with it.  I have praised here on CI the poster Arvinger for his solid ecclesiology, despite his personal belief in BoD.  No, the battle is against the completely false Protestant-Pelagian ecclesiology which is at the root of Vatican II.  Vatican II transformed the dogma that there is no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful" to no salvation outside the "Church of the sincere".  Pelagius would have been very pleased.


Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 11:13:54 AM »
Quote
Nothing in the citation you quote from Ott implicitly refutes the Church's doctrine concerning baptism of desire.

It does, but you’re apparently unable to even follow a logical argument, which is why you have not addressed it but focused upon an afterthought.

As far as that afterthought goes, you’re separating the translation out of original sin and the mark of a Christian in a manner that is untenable. How can one be “in the Church”, as one would have to be for BOD to be efficacious to salvation (Cantate Domino) without bearing the “mark of a Christian”?



 which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour.


This is precisely the process supposedly taking place in BOD that is made thereby redundant in actual Baptism (precisely the point you have chosen to ignore). But what does it say? It mentions not only the translation into the state of justification, but that of ADOPTION as SONS of God through CHRIST. Now, are you going to maintain that the seal with the indelible mark of a Christian is not something that is essentially part of this very adoption?

(Baptism has six effects, by the way: remission of sin, remission of punishment due to sin, grace of regeneration, infused virtues and incorporation with Christ, mark of a Christian, and opening of the doors of Heaven. So which ones of these, in light of Trent’s statement supposedly relating to what can also be effected by BOD, do you arbitrarily exclude from BOD to serve your argument ad hoc? How about the opening of the gates of Heaven? No, any but that one, right?)

Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2018, 11:22:13 AM »
The respondent appears not to understand the use of the word “implicitly” here. It means that the argument against perfect contrition being necessary to effect the Sacrament of Penance implies the very same conclusion I regard to BOD by simply adding to it the unusual premises of BOD; it does not mean that Ott was implying that BOD is false. Please, if you can’t understand such a basic concept, namely that the logical structure of a valid argument along with certain premises imply things about other domains of discourse, don’t waste my time.

Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2018, 01:46:02 PM »
Happenby: The Church's teaching on baptism is not dependent on fallible theologians or saints, but on the infallible magisterium, the popes, and without doubt, the Council of Trent.  "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema." 

Reply: All the canon you quoted means is that the sacrament of baptism requires real water, and that the “water” spoken of by Our  Lord cannot be understood metaphorically.

The separate question of whether a person can obtain the salvific effects of baptism – i.e., translation into the state of justification by the infusion of sanctifying grace – without receiving the sacrament in re, is treated in another place. 

When discussing the sacraments in general, the same Holy Council teaches:

CANON IV.”If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

It goes on to explain that the salvific effects of the Eucharist, Penance, and Baptism can be obtained by desire.  Concerning baptism, we read:

 "And this translation (to the state of justification), since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, at least in the desire thereof, as it is written; “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

The above teaching has always been understood as meaning the desire for baptism can suffice for salvation, provided that the person makes a supernatural act of faith combined with a perfect act of charity.  Two quotations will suffice, both of which are from doctors of the Church:

Bellarmine: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water, not out of contempt, but out of necessity… For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities... … Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.

St. Alphonsus: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. … Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

Just as a baptized person in mortal sin can obtain the salvific effects of Penance (infusion of grace and remission of sin) by means of an act of perfect contrition, so too can one obtain the salvific effects of baptism by a perfect of contrition combined with supernatural faith. 
In condemning the errors of Fr. Feeney, the Holy Office wrote:

“In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration [i.e. baptism] and in reference to the sacrament of penance.”

Here we have the Magisterium itself interpreting the above citation from Trent as teaching that the salvific effects of baptism can be obtain by “desire and longing”. This is not merely the teaching of a theologian, or even of a doctor of the Church, but of the Magisterium.
Many more quotations could be provided, but these should suffice for any Catholic of good will.