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Author Topic: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire  (Read 4718 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2018, 08:18:31 PM »
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  • Can you name a theologian in the 19th and 20th century that rejects the theory of salvation by belief in a God that rewards, that is, salvation without desire to be baptized, without a desire to be a Catholic, without belief in Christ or the Holy Trinity?

    As  a matter of fact, 99% of those that defend baptism of desire, reject the very idea of desire being necessary for salvation, nor belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity.
    .
    While I concur with the gist of your post, I take issue with the "99%" figure. 
    It appears arbitrary, and not "a matter of fact."
    I suspect it's exaggerated, and that approximately 87.8125%, +/-0.003%, is closer to the reality.  ;D
    .
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 11:43:40 PM »
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  • Nobody cares about BOD except those who can't deal with the thrice infallible dogma that only validly baptized Roman Catholics go to heaven. BOD was not an issue for anyone before the Americanists made it so, in the XIX century.  

    Chances are the hypothetical catechumen does not even exist in reality anyway.

    And of course, these people are not talking about a real, pious catechumen who dies on his way of getting water baptized....
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 11:47:06 PM »
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  • Father Leonard Feeney.

    Name a theologian today who rejects the errors of Vatican II.

    .
    To be fair, Fr. Feeney did not wage a crusade rejecting BoD or BoB. Those were not his concern.
    His concern was defending extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Period.

    As for BoD and BoB, his position was that since we cannot know the state of a soul of a dying person because we cannot know his interior disposition (only God can discern the thought of our hearts), what becomes of such souls who have not been baptized is left to the providence of God. It's not OUR DECISION what happens. It's God's decision.
    .
    BoB and BoD advocates like "RomanTheo" above are wont to rip that prerogative of God away from Him and make it their own.
    .
    BoB and/or BoD never have been prominent issues for the St. Benedict Center, and they never will be.
    .
    Those who would make it seem so are succuмbing to a deception of the enemy who wants to deceive you.
    .
    As for your question, "Name a theologian today who rejects the errors of Vatican II" -- excellent!
    .
    They had to GET RID of Fr. Feeney in order to HOLD Vat.II. If he had not been squelched long in advance (11 years, actually) they would have been utterly UNABLE to hold that evil council, for his one voice would have been like Athanasius against the Arians. And the Modernists were terrified of that prospect.
    .

    This is a very good post, Neil.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 12:27:42 AM »
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  • This is a very good post, Neil.
    .
    Thank you.
    .
    I'm currently reading The Loyolas and the Cabots by Sister Catherine. You can't make this stuff up!
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #19 on: April 22, 2018, 12:43:00 AM »
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  • Nobody cares about BOD except those who can't deal with the thrice infallible dogma that only validly baptized Roman Catholics go to heaven. BOD was not an issue for anyone before the Americanists made it so, in the XIX century.  
    .
    [And flat-earthism wasn't an issue for anyone before Eric Dubay, the atheist, started making YouTube videos.]

    Chances are the hypothetical catechumen does not even exist in reality anyway.

    And of course, these people are not talking about a real, pious catechumen who dies on his way of getting water baptized....
    .
    Brother Francis used to say that progressivists like to make the exception into the rule. They say, about the image of a tree there before everyone, "I see a tree." Then pushing their finger in to the side of their eyeball, they say, "Now I see two trees."
    .
    You see, their reality is in the mind. 
    But truth is defined as the conformity of the mind to reality.
    So progressivists are opposed to believing the truth. A lot like flat-earthers, actually!
    .
    Regarding BoD, the progressivist likes to jump topic and worry about the "noble indigenous native on a desert island" far away, and whether it's fair that he wouldn't be given Baptism or instruction in the Faith, why, he's most likely to live and die like his ancestors without ever having heard the name of Jesus pronounced. Then Brother Francis would say,  Why would he be selectively concerned about the noble native in a distant land when we can't get the truth into the minds of our next-door neighbor walking on the Boston Common?
    .
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 06:26:59 AM »
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  • Chances are the hypothetical catechumen does not even exist in reality anyway.

    Agreed.  Even if such a thing were a hypothetical possibility, there's no proof that anyone has ever been saved in this manner.  Nor is it necessary, since God is never prevented by "impossibility" from bringing the Sacrament to any of His elect.  We have numerous examples of God working miracles to do just that, raising the dead back to life so they could be baptized, or miraculously providing water.  If someone were to be saved by BoD and not able to receive the Sacrament, we would have to further hypothesize and speculate about why God would will that they be saved in this manner ... when He could just as easily have provided the Sacrament.  Everything about BoD revolves around speculation as to what would or would not be "fair" for God to do ... which does nothing more than open up a "vortex of confusion", as St. Augustine called it, once he had come to his senses and rejected his earlier youthful speculation regarding BoD.  He rejected it after many years of grappling with the Pelagians, and realizing that BoD led inexorably to Pelagianism.

    If God has willed to save someone this way, then glory to God.  But, otherwise, speculation about this leads to nothing good.  It undermines belief in the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation, about the nature of the Church, ultimately reducing salvation and supernatural faith to a matter of "sincerity" and "good will" ... and leads us right up to Vatican II.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 06:44:58 AM »
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  • To be fair, Fr. Feeney did not wage a crusade rejecting BoD or BoB. Those were not his concern.
    His concern was defending extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Period.

    Precisely.  And I too consider BoD proper to be a matter of secondary importance.  I have no serious fight, except a personal disagreement, with someone who holds to a Thomistic or Bellarminist BoD ... i.e., so long as they don't bring all the usual heretical baggage with it.  I have praised here on CI the poster Arvinger for his solid ecclesiology, despite his personal belief in BoD.  No, the battle is against the completely false Protestant-Pelagian ecclesiology which is at the root of Vatican II.  Vatican II transformed the dogma that there is no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful" to no salvation outside the "Church of the sincere".  Pelagius would have been very pleased.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 11:13:54 AM »
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  • Quote
    Nothing in the citation you quote from Ott implicitly refutes the Church's doctrine concerning baptism of desire.

    It does, but you’re apparently unable to even follow a logical argument, which is why you have not addressed it but focused upon an afterthought.

    As far as that afterthought goes, you’re separating the translation out of original sin and the mark of a Christian in a manner that is untenable. How can one be “in the Church”, as one would have to be for BOD to be efficacious to salvation (Cantate Domino) without bearing the “mark of a Christian”?



     which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour.


    This is precisely the process supposedly taking place in BOD that is made thereby redundant in actual Baptism (precisely the point you have chosen to ignore). But what does it say? It mentions not only the translation into the state of justification, but that of ADOPTION as SONS of God through CHRIST. Now, are you going to maintain that the seal with the indelible mark of a Christian is not something that is essentially part of this very adoption?

    (Baptism has six effects, by the way: remission of sin, remission of punishment due to sin, grace of regeneration, infused virtues and incorporation with Christ, mark of a Christian, and opening of the doors of Heaven. So which ones of these, in light of Trent’s statement supposedly relating to what can also be effected by BOD, do you arbitrarily exclude from BOD to serve your argument ad hoc? How about the opening of the gates of Heaven? No, any but that one, right?)


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #23 on: April 22, 2018, 11:22:13 AM »
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  • The respondent appears not to understand the use of the word “implicitly” here. It means that the argument against perfect contrition being necessary to effect the Sacrament of Penance implies the very same conclusion I regard to BOD by simply adding to it the unusual premises of BOD; it does not mean that Ott was implying that BOD is false. Please, if you can’t understand such a basic concept, namely that the logical structure of a valid argument along with certain premises imply things about other domains of discourse, don’t waste my time.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #24 on: April 22, 2018, 01:46:02 PM »
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  • Happenby: The Church's teaching on baptism is not dependent on fallible theologians or saints, but on the infallible magisterium, the popes, and without doubt, the Council of Trent.  "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema." 

    Reply: All the canon you quoted means is that the sacrament of baptism requires real water, and that the “water” spoken of by Our  Lord cannot be understood metaphorically.

    The separate question of whether a person can obtain the salvific effects of baptism – i.e., translation into the state of justification by the infusion of sanctifying grace – without receiving the sacrament in re, is treated in another place. 

    When discussing the sacraments in general, the same Holy Council teaches:

    CANON IV.”If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    It goes on to explain that the salvific effects of the Eucharist, Penance, and Baptism can be obtained by desire.  Concerning baptism, we read:

     "And this translation (to the state of justification), since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, at least in the desire thereof, as it is written; “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

    The above teaching has always been understood as meaning the desire for baptism can suffice for salvation, provided that the person makes a supernatural act of faith combined with a perfect act of charity.  Two quotations will suffice, both of which are from doctors of the Church:

    Bellarmine: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water, not out of contempt, but out of necessity… For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities... … Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.

    St. Alphonsus: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. … Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    Just as a baptized person in mortal sin can obtain the salvific effects of Penance (infusion of grace and remission of sin) by means of an act of perfect contrition, so too can one obtain the salvific effects of baptism by a perfect of contrition combined with supernatural faith. 
    In condemning the errors of Fr. Feeney, the Holy Office wrote:

    “In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration [i.e. baptism] and in reference to the sacrament of penance.”

    Here we have the Magisterium itself interpreting the above citation from Trent as teaching that the salvific effects of baptism can be obtain by “desire and longing”. This is not merely the teaching of a theologian, or even of a doctor of the Church, but of the Magisterium.
    Many more quotations could be provided, but these should suffice for any Catholic of good will.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #25 on: April 22, 2018, 03:16:48 PM »
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  • "by which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour." [Council of Trent] 

    This is precisely the process supposedly taking place in BOD that is made thereby redundant in actual Baptism (precisely the point you have chosen to ignore). But what does it say? It mentions not only the translation into the state of justification, but that of ADOPTION as SONS of God through CHRIST. Now, are you going to maintain that the seal with the indelible mark of a Christian is not something that is essentially part of this very adoption?


     
    Indeed I am. The baptismal character has nothing to do with divine adoption. The character is a power of the soul that pertains to the worship of God on earth and to receiving Christ in the Eucharist.  It is sanctifying grace, which is a created participation in divine life, that justifies man, makes him an adopted child of God, and an heir of heaven. Sanctifying grace is what justifies man and what make him a child of God. 

    The only question that was debated prior to Trent was whether the formal cause of divine adoption is sanctifying grace (a created participation in divine life), or the indwelling Holy Ghost (the uncreated life of God).  Trent settled the question by teaching that it is grace that makes a man an adopted child of God.  The article on this subject in the Catholic Encyclopedia is quite good.  Here is an excerpt:
     
    Catholic Encyclopedia: “What is the essential factor or formal cause of our supernatural adoption? This question was never seriously mooted previous to the scholastic period. The solutions it then received were to a great extent influenced by the then current theories on grace. Peter the Lombard, who identifies grace and charity with the Holy Ghost, was naturally brought to explain our adoption by the sole presence of the Spirit in the soul of the just, to the exclusion of any created and inherent God-given entity. The Nominalists and Scotus, though reluctantly admitting a created entity, nevertheless failed to see in it a valid factor of our divine adoption, and consequently had recourse to a divine positive enactment decreeing and receiving us as children of God and heirs of the Kingdom. Apart from these, a vast majority of the Schoolmen with Alexander Hales, Albert the Great, St. Bonaventure, and preeminently St. Thomas, pointed to habitual grace (an expression coined by Alexander) as the essential factor of our adopted sonship. For them the same inherent quality which gives new life and birth to the soul gives it also a new filiation. Says the Angel of the Schools (III:9:23, ad 3am), "The creature is assimilated to the Word of God in His Unity with the Father; and this is done by grace and charity. . . . Such a likeness perfects the idea of adoption, for to the like is due the same eternal heritage."  This last view received the seal of the Council of Trent (sess. VI, c. vii, can. 11). The Council first identifies justification with adoption: "To become just and to be heir according to the hope of life everlasting" is one and the same thing. It then proceeds to give the real essence of justification. "Its sole formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just.”  … From what has been said, it is manifest that our supernatural adoption is an immediate and necessary property of sanctifying grace. The primal concept of sanctifying grace is a new God-given and Godlike life superadded to our natural life. By that very life we are born to God even as the child to its parent, and thus we acquire a new filiation. This filiation is called adoption …”


    I challenge you to cite any authority who teaches that the baptismal character is necessary for divine adoption, or for salvation.  And the inventor of the novelty you profess (Fr. Feeney) doesn't count.
    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #26 on: April 22, 2018, 04:50:49 PM »
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  • Happenby: The Church's teaching on baptism is not dependent on fallible theologians or saints, but on the infallible magisterium, the popes, and without doubt, the Council of Trent. "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema."

    Reply: All the canon you quoted means is that the sacrament of baptism requires real water, and that the “water” spoken of by Our  Lord cannot be understood metaphorically.

    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

    Canon V: You have to have baptism for salvation.  
    Canon II. You have to have water for baptism.  
    The definition of metaphor:
    A metaphor states that one thing is another thing. https://www.grammarly.com/blog/metaphor/

    Since the canon rejects metaphors, saying that bod will save makes the person saying it, anathema.
    Bod, by definition, is not baptism, and it cannot save.  These canons are iron clad against bod.    

    The separate question of whether a person can obtain the salvific effects of baptism – i.e., translation into the state of justification by the infusion of sanctifying grace – without receiving the sacrament in re, is treated in another place.  

    When discussing the sacraments in general, the same Holy Council teaches:

    CANON IV.”If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.


    If anyone says the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation (not all are necessary, but at least one is); Or says that without the sacraments, and, without the desire for the sacraments, men obtain through faith alone the grace of justification, let him be anathema. Both desire for the sacraments, and the sacraments themselves, are necessary for justification.  Anathema to anyone saying otherwise.  




    It goes on to explain that the salvific effects of the Eucharist, Penance, and Baptism can be obtained by desire.  Concerning baptism, we read:

     "And this translation (to the state of justification), since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, at least in the desire thereof, as it is written; “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”


    The "or" in Trent includes "laver of regeneration" and it includes "desire".  The sacrament "laver of regeneration" is necessary, and it cannot be had without "desire for it".  If one concludes that the "or" means "either/or" then that means one can have justification with laver of regeneration, by desire only, but then that means one can get justification with the "laver of regeneration", but without desire for the sacrament.  And we all know that is false.  Further, if you can have justification with laver of regeneration, but without desire, and you can have justification with desire but without laver of regeneration, then we can have justification without either, "desire" or "laver of regeneration", courtesy of the "or".  Patently false.  

    The "or" in Trent's quoted statements includes the necessity of "desire" and the necessity of the "laver of regeneration"  because it says this: you cannot have justification without...
    Without what?  You cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration, or without the desire thereof.  You need both.  If we read it the way bod'ers suggest, acting as though the "or" is not inclusive in a sentence written in the negative sense, using the word "without" then we need neither, making the sentence renders both laver of regeneration and desire as unnecessary for justification.

          

    The above teaching has always been understood as meaning the desire for baptism can suffice for salvation, provided that the person makes a supernatural act of faith combined with a perfect act of charity.  Two quotations will suffice, both of which are from doctors of the Church:

    Bellarmine: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water, not out of contempt, but out of necessity… For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities... … Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.

    St. Alphonsus: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. … Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    Just as a baptized person in mortal sin can obtain the salvific effects of Penance (infusion of grace and remission of sin) by means of an act of perfect contrition, so too can one obtain the salvific effects of baptism by a perfect of contrition combined with supernatural faith.  
    In condemning the errors of Fr. Feeney, the Holy Office wrote:

    “In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration [i.e. baptism] and in reference to the sacrament of penance.”

    Here we have the Magisterium itself interpreting the above citation from Trent as teaching that the salvific effects of baptism can be obtain by “desire and longing”. This is not merely the teaching of a theologian, or even of a doctor of the Church, but of the Magisterium.
    Many more quotations could be provided, but these should suffice for any Catholic of good will.


    The canons of the Church make it clear that water is necessary for baptism and baptism is necessary for salvation.  The saints cannot contradict these truths no matter how hopeful their sentiments.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #27 on: April 22, 2018, 08:10:55 PM »
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  • The baptismal character has nothing to do with divine adoption.

    FALSE!!!

    What this character does is to imprint the likeness of Our Lord, the Son of God, onto our souls (similar to how Holy Orders works, but to a lesser degree).  When we bear this mark, God the Father recognizes us as His sons.  Without being His sons in this manner, we cannot enter into the inner life of the Holy Trinity and see God as He is in the beatific vision.

    This BoDer hogwash about how the character is nothing but some non-repeatability marker for the Sacrament or else some badge of honor which some in heaven have but others do not, renders the mark almost meaningless.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #28 on: April 22, 2018, 08:14:43 PM »
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  • Catholic Encyclopedia: “What is the essential factor or formal cause of our supernatural adoption? This question was never seriously mooted previous to the scholastic period. The solutions it then received were to a great extent influenced by the then current theories on grace. Peter the Lombard, who identifies grace and charity with the Holy Ghost, was naturally brought to explain our adoption by the sole presence of the Spirit in the soul of the just, to the exclusion of any created and inherent God-given entity. The Nominalists and Scotus, though reluctantly admitting a created entity, nevertheless failed to see in it a valid factor of our divine adoption, and consequently had recourse to a divine positive enactment decreeing and receiving us as children of God and heirs of the Kingdom. Apart from these, a vast majority of the Schoolmen with Alexander Hales, Albert the Great, St. Bonaventure, and preeminently St. Thomas, pointed to habitual grace (an expression coined by Alexander) as the essential factor of our adopted sonship. For them the same inherent quality which gives new life and birth to the soul gives it also a new filiation. Says the Angel of the Schools (III:9:23, ad 3am), "The creature is assimilated to the Word of God in His Unity with the Father; and this is done by grace and charity. . . . Such a likeness perfects the idea of adoption, for to the like is due the same eternal heritage."  This last view received the seal of the Council of Trent (sess. VI, c. vii, can. 11). The Council first identifies justification with adoption: "To become just and to be heir according to the hope of life everlasting" is one and the same thing. It then proceeds to give the real essence of justification. "Its sole formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just.”  … From what has been said, it is manifest that our supernatural adoption is an immediate and necessary property of sanctifying grace. The primal concept of sanctifying grace is a new God-given and Godlike life superadded to our natural life. By that very life we are born to God even as the child to its parent, and thus we acquire a new filiation. This filiation is called adoption …”

    Distinguo.  Yes, in actu it's sanctifying grace that constitutes the essence of the adoption, but it is the character which makes it a possibility in the first place, in potentia.  But there can be no act without the potency to said act in the first place.

    So, then, one who has the potency but not the act, i.e. the character but not sanctifying grace, is excluded from this spirit of adoption and from the beatific vision and life of the Holy Trinity.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #29 on: April 22, 2018, 08:15:06 PM »
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    Happenby: “The canons of the Church make it clear that water is necessary for baptism and baptism is necessary for salvation.  The saints cannot contradict these truths no matter how hopeful their sentiments.” 
     
    RomanTheo: What makes more sense, that two doctors of the Church and the Holy Office misunderstood Trent’s teaching concerning baptism, or that it is you who have misunderstand the canons?  Every pre-Vatican II manual explains the Church’s teaching concerning baptism in similar terms, and they all teach baptism of desire and blood – not as “a piece of speculative theology that the Church has tolerated for some period of time,” as Ladislas claimed, but rather as a doctrine qualified as sententia proximate fide, as Dr. Ott taught in the earlier citation.  
     
    Rejection of a doctrine qualified as sententia proximate fide is not merely rash, but rather a mortal sin indirectly against the faith, as Fr. Cartechini explains in his masterful work On the Value of Theological Notes and the Criteria for Discerning Them
     
    Happenby: CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
     
    RomanTheo:  No one denies that baptism is necessary for salvation.   If you study the teaching of the Church you will find that baptism is necessary with the two-fold necessity of means (necessitas medii), and necessity of precept (necessitas prcecepti).
     
    Necessity of precept “signifies the type of necessity which arises exclusively from a moral obligation. It conduces to salvation not so much by a positive causal influx as the removal of obstacles to salvation. If the precept is not observed, serious sin is committed; and sin itself is an obstacle to salvation.”  This precept is referred to as a relative necessity, for one is not guilty of sin (the “obstacle to salvation”), unless they are guilty of neglecting to receive baptism.
     
    Concerning the necessity of means (necessitas medii), Wilhelm and Scannell explain it as follows in their celebrated work A Manual of Catholic Theology (1901).  Be sure to notice what Conciliar decree they reference concerning baptism of desire:
     
    “We have, in the first volume, distinguished two kinds of necessity: necessity of means (necessitas medii), and necessity of precept (necessitas prcecepti).
     
    “(a) Baptism is a necessary means of salvation; that is to say, without baptism a person cannot be saved, even though the omission is due to no fault on any one's part. Those who are capable of receiving God's commands (that is, all grown-up persons) are bound to seek baptism, and if they neglect to do so, they commit a grievous sin.
     
    “(b) The apparent harshness of this doctrine is mitigated when we bear in mind a further distinction recognized by the Council of Trent (sess. vi., De Justif., cap. iv.; sess. vii., De Sacr., can. 4), and thus explained by St. Thomas: "The sacrament of baptism may be wanting to a person in two ways: first, in fact and in desire (re et voto) as in the case of those who are not baptized and refuse to be baptized, which is manifestly a contempt of the sacrament, and therefore those who in this way are without baptism cannot be saved, seeing that they are neither sacramentally nor mentally (in spirit) incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone is salvation. Secondly, the sacrament may be wanting in fact but not in desire, as when a person wishes to be baptized, but is stricken by death before he can receive baptism, and such a one can, without actual baptism, be saved on account of the desire of baptism proceeding from faith working by love, by means of which God, Whose power is not restricted to visible sacraments, internally (interius) sanctifies him. Hence, Ambrose saith of Valentinian, who died while only a catechumen: ‘I have lost him whom I was about to regenerate; but he has not lost the grace which he asked for'." (ST. q. 68, a. 2).
     
    “This "baptism of desire" (flaminis) as opposed to actual baptism (baptismus fluminis), is treated of at great length by St. Augustine. "I find," he says (De Bapt., iv. 22), "that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply the defect of baptism (id quod ex baptismo deeraf), but even faith and conversion of heart, if there be no time for celebrating the sacrament (mysteriuni) of baptism.

    To sum up, baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of precept and a necessity of means.  The former is a relative necessity. The latter is an absolute necessity - but only as to its salvific effects, which can be had by receiving the water of baptism in fact or in desire.
     
    Happenby: Canon II. You have to have water for baptism. 
     
    The definition of metaphor: A metaphor states that one thing is another thing. https://www.grammarly.com/blog/metaphor/
    Since the canon rejects metaphors, saying that bod will save makes the person saying it, anathema.  Bod, by definition, is not baptism, and it cannot save.  These canons are iron clad against bod.   
     
    RomanTheo: What the canon rejects is that the word “water” (in John 3:3) be understood in a metaphorical sense, which is what the heretics of the day were guilty of doing.  The canon has nothing to do with the doctrine of baptism of desire, which is a desire to receive the water of baptism.
     
    Happenby: "And this translation (to the state of justification), since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, at least in the desire thereof, as it is written; “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Council of Trent)
     
    The "or" in Trent includes "laver of regeneration" and it includes "desire".  The sacrament "laver of regeneration" is necessary, and it cannot be had without "desire for it".  If one concludes that the "or" means "either/or" then that means one can have justification with laver of regeneration, by desire only, but then that means one can get justification with the "laver of regeneration", but without desire for the sacrament.  And we all know that is false.
     
    RomanTheo: On the contrary, we all know it is true.  A person most certainly can be justified by the “laver of regeneration” without having the desire for the sacrament. This happens every single time an infant is baptized. If the laver of regeneration AND desire were absolutely necessary, infant baptism would be null and void.
     
    Happenby: Further, if you can have justification with laver of regeneration, but without desire, and you can have justification with desire but without laver of regeneration, then we can have justification without either, "desire" or "laver of regeneration", courtesy of the "or".  Patently false. 
     
    RomanTheo: Your leap from the conclusion that if only one of the two is necessary, it means neither are necessary, is illogical and absurd. “Or” means one of the two. It doesn’t mean neither of the two.
     
    Happenby: The "or" in Trent's quoted statements includes the necessity of "desire" and the necessity of the "laver of regeneration" because it says this: you cannot have justification without...”  Without what?  You cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration, or without the desire thereof.  You need both.”
     
    RomanTheo:  Again, if this were true it would mean infant baptisms are invalid, since infants receive the laver without desire. 
     
    Now, since the Church’s universal disciplines are infallible, and since the universal practice of the Church for two thousand years has been to baptize infants, it proves that your interpretation of Trent – which is contrary to that of the Magisterium (quoted earlier) and every single theologian without exception since the time of the Council – is dead wrong.
    Never trust; always verify.