[Lover of Truth]

   Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.

Do you agree with Lefebvre's statement that souls can be saved in any religion but not by the religion?

Properly understood.  If they are living in accordance with the natural law and love God with the love of benevolence and are ignorant, through no fault of their own, of the necessity of the Catholic Church, and have a supernatural faith and die in state of sanctifying grace then they may physically located in a false religion but they are on the path to salvation, if they live long enough they would end up in the Catholic Church unless they got a lobotomy and were rendered incapable of learning any more and could no longer continue on the path that first got them to accept Christ and would eventually lead them into the Catholic Church.

Lefebvre was schooled in in pre-V2 seminary.  He would not make such a statement off the cuff.  I think he can be trusted in basic theology (not post V2 crisis theology) more than most bloggers.  

What do you think? I love to be corrected by the good willed when I am wrong.  Please let me know.

[Exurge]

   Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.

Do you agree with Lefebvre's statement that souls can be saved in any religion but not by the religion?

Properly understood.  If they are living in accordance with the natural law and love God with the love of benevolence and are ignorant, through no fault of their own, of the necessity of the Catholic Church, and have a supernatural faith and die in state of sanctifying grace then they may physically located in a false religion but they are on the path to salvation, if they live long enough they would end up in the Catholic Church unless they got a lobotomy and were rendered incapable of learning any more and could no longer continue on the path that first got them to accept Christ and would eventually lead them into the Catholic Church.

Lefebvre was schooled in in pre-V2 seminary.  He would not make such a statement off the cuff.  I think he can be trusted in basic theology (not post V2 crisis theology) more than most bloggers.  

What do you think? I love to be corrected by the good willed when I am wrong.  Please let me know.

Well this whole EENS issue seems to be a never ending nightmare because it has never been officially settled.

Trent said that neither the Natural Law nor even the Mosaic law could justify anyone, but i think i have read somewhere that if those in invincible ignorance follow the natural law perfectly that they could be saved without any knowledge, even implicit, about the Trinity or the Incarnation.

[Exurge]

I also think how can the Athanasian Creed and Trent saying that it is impossible to please God without the Catholic Faith can be possibly compatible with the whole invincible ignorance business.

Sometimes i think, so what, you can't say that you absolutely need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved? You have to say, well, you don't absolutely need to in reality...

But then, what kind of a thing is that?

[Ambrose]

I also think how can the Athanasian Creed and Trent saying that it is impossible to please God without the Catholic Faith can be possibly compatible with the whole invincible ignorance business.

Sometimes i think, so what, you can't say that you absolutely need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved? You have to say, well, you don't absolutely need to in reality...

But then, what kind of a thing is that?

One must have the Faith to be saved.  The debate is over what constituted the minimum explicit Faith that is necessary.

[Cantarella]

Well this whole EENS issue seems to be a never ending nightmare because it has never been officially settled.

Sorry but it has been in fact settled by the Church long ago.

THE INFALLIBLE DOGMA OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

"There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302)

"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that none, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unit of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).




All three of these statements are ex cathedra definitions of the Church and of the Pontiffs who made them. (Ex cathedra means that these are infallible teachings of the Church which all persons must believe in order to be saved. These teachings are not subject to change as the popes in making these declarations of faith were guided by the Holy Ghost, Who is unchangeable.)

The mentioned formula (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, it is the standard of orthodoxy on the subject of salvation; which is to say, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. Otherwise, they fall into error.

This dogma rules out the possibility of simple invincible ignorance concerning the matter of salvation; those who die in ignorance of the Church as the only course of salvific grace are still culpable. Basically, they did not know because they did not want to know (those of good will shall be drawn to God through Christ).  

If there is salvation outside the Church, what difference does it make whether one is in the Church or out of It, whether one is a heretic in the judgment of the Church or not? Really, if to deny this doctrine is not heresy, there is no such thing as heresy.

[Ambrose]

   Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.

Do you agree with Lefebvre's statement that souls can be saved in any religion but not by the religion?

Properly understood.  If they are living in accordance with the natural law and love God with the love of benevolence and are ignorant, through no fault of their own, of the necessity of the Catholic Church, and have a supernatural faith and die in state of sanctifying grace then they may physically located in a false religion but they are on the path to salvation, if they live long enough they would end up in the Catholic Church unless they got a lobotomy and were rendered incapable of learning any more and could no longer continue on the path that first got them to accept Christ and would eventually lead them into the Catholic Church.

Lefebvre was schooled in in pre-V2 seminary.  He would not make such a statement off the cuff.  I think he can be trusted in basic theology (not post V2 crisis theology) more than most bloggers.  

What do you think? I love to be corrected by the good willed when I am wrong.  Please let me know.

Well this whole EENS issue seems to be a never ending nightmare because it has never been officially settled.

Trent said that neither the Natural Law nor even the Mosaic law could justify anyone, but i think i have read somewhere that if those in invincible ignorance follow the natural law perfectly that they could be saved without any knowledge, even implicit, about the Trinity or the Incarnation.

The matter has been settled.  The SBC began this mess in the 1940s, and now we are living with their tree of rotten fruit.  All Catholics everywhere believed in Baptism of Desire.  This is a heresy.

[Alcuin]

One must have the Faith to be saved.  The debate is over what constituted the minimum explicit Faith that is necessary.

What do you understand to be the minimum?

[Ambrose]

One must have the Faith to be saved.  The debate is over what constituted the minimum explicit Faith that is necessary.

What do you understand to be the minimum?

I adhere to to St. Thomas' teaching on the four criteria.  I also understand that the Church allows the other position.  

[Alcuin]

As in only the first two are necessary?

[Ambrose]

As in only the first two are necessary?

I believe as St. Thomas taught, that all four are necessary.

[Alcuin]

How do you apply that to your "Hindu" in Tibet.

The "Hindu" really being a Catholic.

[Ambrose]

How do you apply that to your "Hindu" in Tibet.

The "Hindu" really being a Catholic.

Hindus cannot be saved.  

[Alcuin]

How do you apply that to your "Hindu" in Tibet.

The "Hindu" really being a Catholic.

Hindus cannot be saved.  

The question was in the context of the following:

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

[Ambrose]

How do you apply that to your "Hindu" in Tibet.

The "Hindu" really being a Catholic.

Hindus cannot be saved.  

The question was in the context of the following:

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Then yes, the man who who is no longer a Hindu and meets the criteria described above can be saved.

[Ladislaus]

Thus the tautology that Pius XII condemned as reducing EENS to a meaningless formula.

Only Catholics can be saved.
Hindu can be saved.
Therefore Hindu is really a Catholic.

Hindu is Karl Rahner's "Anonymous Christian".