Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?  (Read 735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Reputation: +1041/-1106
  • Gender: Male
Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
« on: February 21, 2020, 10:30:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I came across an article(which I don't want to link since I've since discovered his site's full of heretical rot) which used the following quote from the catechism to argue that the Limbo of the Infants cannot be a place of perfect natural happiness, or happiness at all for that matter, because it is impossible for man to be happy completed separated from God(as all souls in Hell are).

    Quote from: CCC
    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


    The argument goes that since the Limbo is part of Hell, which I believe is the teaching, then the unbaptised infants are eternally and totally separated from God - and therefore cannot cannot achieve happiness.

    Does anyone have a counter-argument to this?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27973/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 10:33:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unbaptized infants are not separated from God naturally, but only supernaturally.  That is why Limbo is a special case, because it's different from the rest of hell.  As for Limbo being part of hell, vs. its own thing, that is speculative anyway.  There are so many holes in this, that it's not even funny, the first one being the use of CCC as if it were some reliable guide to faith.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12727
    • Reputation: +8113/-2501
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 10:41:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, the "fires of hell" are a punishment for mortal sin.  Infants are not personally guilty of mortal sin, so they do not suffer eternal fire.  It is true that no man can be completely happy if he is separated from God.  But that doesn't mean that one cannot achieve a natural happiness, even if separated from God. 
    .
    Aren't we on earth separated from God, yet we can still have natural happiness (to some degree, at some times, but not all the time and not completely).  And do we not (to some degree, and at MANY times) also feel the emptiness of life, because we are created for God, whom we cannot yet possess fully?  Of course.  So in the same way, those in Limbo could have a "perfect" natural happiness but still suffer because they do not possess God.

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2526
    • Reputation: +1041/-1106
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 10:45:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unbaptized infants are not separated from God naturally, but only supernaturally.  That is why Limbo is a special case, because it's different from the rest of hell.  As for Limbo being part of hell, vs. its own thing, that is speculative anyway.  There are so many holes in this, that it's not even funny, the first one being the use of CCC as if it were some reliable guide to faith.
    I'm aware catechisms are fallible, but I thought that particular teaching was universally thought - I just wasn't aware of the distinction between a natural vs supernatural separation from God. 
    As for Limbo being part of Hell, that's probably dogmatic if you consider the following:

    Quote
    The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”

    Quote
    The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”
    All souls marked with original sin go to Hell, that appears to be dogmatic. The idea of Limbo of the Infants is that it's a part of Hell reserved for those who only have original sin, and therefore do not suffer as per the "unequal pains" part of each dogmatic definition above. 

    The natural vs supernatural distinction you mentioned does seem to be the refutation of the writer's argument though, so could you expand on that please?

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2526
    • Reputation: +1041/-1106
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 10:47:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, the "fires of hell" are a punishment for mortal sin.  Infants are not personally guilty of mortal sin, so they do not suffer eternal fire.  It is true that no man can be completely happy if he is separated from God.  But that doesn't mean that one cannot achieve a natural happiness, even if separated from God.
    .
    Aren't we on earth separated from God, yet we can still have natural happiness (to some degree, at some times, but not all the time and not completely).  And do we not (to some degree, and at MANY times) also feel the emptiness of life, because we are created for God, whom we cannot yet possess fully?  Of course.  So in the same way, those in Limbo could have a "perfect" natural happiness but still suffer because they do not possess God.
    Yes, this was my understanding of it before reading the article. But we on Earth are not completely separated from God. The author's argument was in essence that the infants in Limbo on the contrary are completely separated and therefore cannot be happy. I'm looking for a refutation of that particular argument. 


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27973/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 10:52:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm aware catechisms are fallible, but I thought that particular teaching was universally thought - I just wasn't aware of the distinction between a natural vs supernatural separation from God.
    As for Limbo being part of Hell, that's probably dogmatic if you consider the following:
    All souls marked with original sin go to Hell, that appears to be dogmatic. The idea of Limbo of the Infants is that it's a part of Hell reserved for those who only have original sin, and therefore do not suffer as per the "unequal pains" part of each dogmatic definition above.

    The natural vs supernatural distinction you mentioned does seem to be the refutation of the writer's argument though, so could you expand on that please?

    Yes, the distinction between supernatural and natural happiness comes from St. Thomas Aquinas.  He was one of the first to propose not only that these were not punished, but also that they actually enjoyed a natural happiness.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

    Quote
    It should be added that in St. Thomas' view the limbus infantium is not a mere negative state of immunity from suffering and sorrow, but a state of positive happiness in which the soul is united to God by a knowledge and love of him proportionate to nature's capacity.

    Also, from the same article, the Council of Florence teaching you cited would SEEM to rule out Limbo altogether.  Here is the explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia.
    Quote
    Finally, in regard to the teaching of the Council of Florence, it is incredible that the Fathers there assembled had any intention of defining a question so remote from the issue on which reunion with the Greeks depended, and one which was recognized at the time as being open to free discussion and continued to be so regarded by theologians for several centuries afterwards. What the council evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God. In this sense they are damned; they have failed to reach their supernatural destiny, and this viewed objectively is a true penalty. Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children's limbo, while from the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of nαzιanzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God's justice and other attributes.

    This, BTW, can also be applied to Trent's mention of BoD.  Even if you believe it's promoting the possibility of BoD, there was clearly no definition of any kind.  It was mentioned, almost in passing, in a narrative portion of the tract and was not referred to anywhere in the Canons.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5083
    • Reputation: +1992/-246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 10:55:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, the "fires of hell" are a punishment for mortal sin.  Infants are not personally guilty of mortal sin, so they do not suffer eternal fire.  It is true that no man can be completely happy if he is separated from God.  But that doesn't mean that one cannot achieve a natural happiness, even if separated from God.
    .
    Aren't we on earth separated from God, yet we can still have natural happiness (to some degree, at some times, but not all the time and not completely).  And do we not (to some degree, and at MANY times) also feel the emptiness of life, because we are created for God, whom we cannot yet possess fully?  Of course.  So in the same way, those in Limbo could have a "perfect" natural happiness but still suffer because they do not possess God.
    Before I go further, I will just say speculation, speculation, this is all speculation.

    Is it not possible that those in limbo enjoy a "perfect natural happiness" but do not suffer, because even though they do not possess God, they do not know that they are lacking in anything?  Could it be like someone who lives on a beautiful seashore, the weather is perfect 12 months a year, any rainfall is light and pleasant, no natural disasters, abundant food and drink, pleasant natives, always in good health, like the finest Club Med you can imagine.  They go around day in and day out thinking "life is good" and want nothing more, because they are not aware that there is "something more"?  That there is a perfect city over the horizon, out of sight, and there is high culture in abundance, endless opportunities for enjoyment and improvement of oneself, the most enjoyable and fulfilling social relationships imaginable, and delights that make their "Club Med" look like a rundown beach hotel?  It exists, but they don't know it.  Is that a possibility?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27973/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 11:01:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Before I go further, I will just say speculation, speculation, this is all speculation.

    Is it not possible that those in limbo enjoy a "perfect natural happiness" but do not suffer, because even though they do not possess God, they do not know that they are lacking in anything?  Could it be like someone who lives on a beautiful seashore, the weather is perfect 12 months a year, any rainfall is light and pleasant, no natural disasters, abundant food and drink, pleasant natives, always in good health, like the finest Club Med you can imagine.  They go around day in and day out thinking "life is good" and want nothing more, because they are not aware that there is "something more"?  That there is a perfect city over the horizon, out of sight, and there is high culture in abundance, endless opportunities for enjoyment and improvement of oneself, the most enjoyable and fulfilling social relationships imaginable, and delights that make their "Club Med" look like a rundown beach hotel?  It exists, but they don't know it.  Is that a possibility?

    That is precisely what St. Thomas held, that their natures are not capable of understanding what this is that they are missing.  I can't recall the exact example, but he says something like, these souls are no more lacking in happiness than some animal (he uses a concrete one) is grieved that he cannot be a king (since the latter is so far above their nature that they can't even comprehend what that is).

    Or it would be like saying that my dog is unhappy because he cannot understand mathematics.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12727
    • Reputation: +8113/-2501
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 11:15:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Is it not possible that those in limbo enjoy a "perfect natural happiness" but do not suffer, because even though they do not possess God, they do not know that they are lacking in anything? 
    Yes, I agree, it's possible.  On the contrary, those who are damned to eternal fire, are there because of willful sin, therefore their loss of God is known and regretted for all eternity.  While those in Limbo (arguably) cannot suffer God's loss.

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Limbo of the Infants: A place of natural happiness?
    « Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 01:01:01 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • As for Limbo being part of hell, vs. its own thing...
    Yes, Limbo of the infants is a part of Hell, just like Antarctica, the Sahara Desert and the Caribbean and the Polynesian Islands are part of Earth. Beverly Hills and a Black Ghetto in Detroit/Camden/Miami.

    Does everyone get the drift?

    Inside of the surface of the Earth (man has barely scratched the surface) could be another whole world with it's own light and Limbo of the Infants could be an identical paradise to a Polynesian Island but with no bugs and the perfect temperature.