Author Topic: Limbo damned to hell... (Read 28833 times)

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2007, 07:49:57 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Magdalene
Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...

In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.

Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.

Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.

You have managed to put into words what I knew to be true but could not communicate, thank you Gladius

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2007, 08:56:58 AM »

Quote

Catholic conservatives criticized any effort to relegate limbo to oblivion.

Removing the concept from church teaching would lessen baptism's importance and discourage the christening of infants, said Kenneth J. Wolfe, a Washington-based columnist for the traditionalist Catholic newspaper the Remnant.

"It makes baptism a formality, a party, instead of a necessity," Wolfe said. "There would be no reason for infant baptisms. It would put the Catholic Church on par with the Protestants."

It would also deprive Catholic leaders of a tool in their fight against abortion, he added. Priests have long told women that their aborted fetuses cannot go to heaven, which in theory was another argument against ending pregnancy. Without limbo, those fetuses presumably would no longer be denied communion with God.

Baptism with water remains a fundamental step to salvation in Catholic doctrine, and the new docuмent urges parents to continue to baptize their children.

"There is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," the report said.

http://www.latimes.com/news

Trinity · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:33:28 AM »

Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:58:52 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.

protestants believe all kinds of stupid things, trust me I've have spoken to more than I ever cared to in order to defend our faith from their vile attacks.

Clodovicus · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2007, 01:24:01 PM »

Actually it depends on which of the many thousands of denominations you have encountered. Each one has a different view (allbeit that they are all erroneous and similarly related).
The statements of the vatican are nothing short of a denial of Catholic teaching.

According to this new teaching of the Vatican, abortion would seem to be a good thing, since they are all going to heaven, why chance that child growing up and losing salvation? Why not just kill it and send it to the Father?

This is an assertion that everyone is immaculately conceived, and that baptism is pointless. This is an attack on the immaculate conception. What then is the point in the Catholic faith?

Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV On the Sacraments in general: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them... men obtain of God... the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema"

Council of Trent, Sess. VII, Can. V, On Baptism: "If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.