Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: gladius_veritatis on April 20, 2007, 10:04:02 PM
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Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation'
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After several years of study, the Vatican's International Theological Commission said there are good reasons to hope that babies who die without being baptized go to heaven.
In a docuмent published April 20, the commission said the traditional concept of limbo -- as a place where unbaptized infants spend eternity but without communion with God -- seemed to reflect an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."
The church continues to teach that, because of original sin, baptism is the ordinary way of salvation for all people and urges parents to baptize infants, the docuмent said.
But there is greater theological awareness today that God is merciful and "wants all human beings to be saved," it said. Grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ's special love for "the little ones," it said.
"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision," the docuмent said.
"We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge," it added.
The 41-page docuмent, titled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized," was published in Origins, the docuмentary service of Catholic News Service. Pope Benedict XVI authorized its publication earlier this year.
The 30-member International Theological Commission acts as an advisory panel to the Vatican, in particular to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Its docuмents are not considered expressions of authoritative church teaching, but they sometimes set the stage for official Vatican pronouncements.
The commission's docuмent said salvation for unbaptized babies who die was becoming an urgent pastoral question, in part because their number is greatly increasing. Many infants today are born to parents who are not practicing Catholics, and many others are the unborn victims of abortion, it said.
Limbo has never been defined as church dogma and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God's mercy.
But limbo has long been regarded as the common teaching of the church. In the modern age, "people find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness," the new docuмent said.
Parents in particular can experience grief and feelings of guilt when they doubt their unbaptized children are with God, it said.
The church's hope for these infants' salvation reflects a growing awareness of God's mercy, the commission said. But the issue is not simple, because appreciation for divine mercy must be reconciled with fundamental church teachings about original sin and about the necessity of baptism for salvation, it said.
The docuмent traced the development of church thinking about the fate of unbaptized children, noting that there is "no explicit answer" from Scripture or tradition.
In the fifth century, St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without baptism were consigned to hell. By the 13th century, theologians referred to the "limbo of infants" as a place where unbaptized babies were deprived of the vision of God, but did not suffer because they did not know what they were deprived of.
Through the centuries, popes and church councils were careful not to define limbo as a doctrine of the faith and to leave the question open. That was important in allowing an evolution of the teaching, the theological commission said.
A key question taken up by the docuмent was the church's teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation. That teaching needs interpretation, in view of the fact that "infants ... do not place any personal obstacle in the way of redemptive grace," it said.
In this and other situations, the need for the sacrament of baptism is not absolute and is secondary to God's desire for the salvation of every person, it said.
"God can therefore give the grace of baptism without the sacrament being conferred, and this fact should particularly be recalled when the conferring of baptism would be impossible," it said.
This does not deny that all salvation comes through Christ and in some way through the church, it said, but it requires a more careful understanding of how this may work.
The docuмent outlined several ways by which unbaptized babies might be united to Christ:
-- A "saving conformity to Christ in his own death" by infants who themselves suffer and die.
-- A solidarity with Christ among infant victims of violence, born and unborn, who like the holy innocents killed by King Herod are endangered by the "fear or selfishness of others."
-- God may simply give the gift of salvation to unbaptized infants, corresponding to his sacramental gift of salvation to the baptized.
The docuмent said the standard teaching that there is "no salvation outside the church" calls for similar interpretation.
The church's magisterium has moved toward a more "nuanced understanding" of how a saving relationship with the church can be realized, it said. This does not mean that someone who has not received the sacrament of baptism cannot be saved, it said.
Rather, it means that "there is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," it said.
The docuмent quoted St. Paul's teaching that spouses of Christians may be "consecrated" through their wives or husbands. This indicates that the holiness of the church reaches people "outside the visible bounds of the church" through the bonds of human communion, it said.
The docuмent said the church clearly teaches that people are born into a state of sinfulness -- original sin -- which requires an act of redemptive grace to be washed away.
But Scripture also proclaims the "superabundance" of grace over sin, it said. That seems to be missing in the idea of limbo, which identifies more with Adam's sinfulness than with Christ's redemption, it said.
"Christ's solidarity with all of humanity must have priority over the solidarity of human beings with Adam," it said.
Liturgically, the motive for hope was confirmed by the introduction in 1970 of a funeral rite for unbaptized infants whose parents intended to present them for baptism, it said.
The commission said the new theological approach to the question of unbaptized babies should not be used to "negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament."
"Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable -- to baptize them in the faith of the church and incorporate them visibly into the body of Christ," it said.
The commission said hopefulness was not the same as certainty about the destiny of such infants.
"It must be clearly acknowledged that the church does not have sure knowledge about the salvation of unbaptized infants who die," it said.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, was president of the commission and head of the doctrinal congregation when the commission began studying the question of limbo in a systematic way in 2004.
U.S. Cardinal William J. Levada now heads the commission and the doctrinal congregation. Cardinal Levada met with the pope to discuss the docuмent Jan. 19 and, with the pope's approval, authorized its publication.
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By this logic abortion is actually pretty good, think about it, if your murdered as a foetus you get to go straight to heaven without having to go through all the struggles you have to overcome in this life.
If accepted it would also bring into doubt the existence or Original Sin and would make Baptism unnecessary.
Either these theologians are idiots who are incapable of realising where there denial of Limbo will lead us, or they are intelligent enough to realise these things but that is actually where they want to go. Either way it would be a disaster if such a thing would become widely accepted as fact.
If they have a problem with a restrictive view of salvation then they should take their compliants up with God, afterall it was He who made it restrictive.
I see their using the language of the Communists to, has the church ever previously spoke of solidarity before these last 100 years? I seem to be coming across this word over and over again in the modern church.
These are the fruits of secular humanism.
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Much is made of the fact that Limbo is only a hypothesis, and not defined.
... Ignoring the fact that what is pretty well defined is that unbaptised infants, as a rule, are deprived of the Beatific Vision. As far as we know. That's not to say that God is bound by the Sacraments as we are. He can bend the rules. But we can't assume He always will.
Get rid of Limbo, and Heaven is not the inevitable alternative final destination.
Suffering in Hell is the alternative.
Clare.
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What strikes me is the unmitigated arrogance of those who think that they can throw wide the gates of heaven, and otherwise arrange God's creation to suit themselves. Snake oil salesmen!
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The secular Humanism which has infected the minds of many theologians and influences their work will eventually lead to the heresy of either Universal Salvation or no salvation believing as it does in the false masonic dogmas of liberty equality & fraternity.
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It is not a case of "eventually", carolus. It is already here. Read Redemptor Hominis by JP2. In this evil docuмent, he says that Christ, merely by virtue of the Incarnation, is united to all men - forever.
That is also why, as early as 1967, the mutilated form for the so-called consecration of the Precious Blood read: "...for you and for all men..." This was only changed to "for all" because of the outcries that came from feminist quarters.
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Pope Revises 'Limbo' for Babies
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Apr 20, 2:36 PM (ET)
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070420/D8OKGGS80.html
By NICOLE WINFIELD
(AP) Newly elected Pope Benedict XVI waves to the crowd from the central balcony of St.Peter's Basilica,...
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VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.
Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, which issued its long-awaited docuмent on limbo on Origins, the docuмentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.
"We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press.
Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians have long taught, however, that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God.
Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.
In the docuмent, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness."
It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge."
Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter.
Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.
The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.
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Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.
These are not suitable grounds for such a momentous decision, with these words they are openly admitting that the teaching on limbo is been changed because of the evil acts of the people who live during our present times. This is nothing less than an admission of modernism in my eyes and a surrender to the devil.
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Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.
What in blazes does this mean?!#*
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Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.
What in blazes does this mean?!#*
It means "we know this decision of ours will make baptism unnecessary for salvation but if we openly admit this then we will be admitting to been heretics so we will make up some non sensical words which we can then point out to defend ourselves.
Those words are nothing more than double speak otherwise known as speaking with a forked tongue.
This is what happens when you try and be all things to all men, you end up been rejected as the charlatan that you must become in pursuit of this goal.
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Since Limbo is not a defined dogma, we can still hope that unbaptized babies can make it to heaven. That is all the Church is saying now. Nothing heretical about that.
Mary revealed to a saint (I forgot who) that when Herod killed the babies, the instant before they died, God granted these babies the opportunity to accept their martyrdom for the faith. In other words, they were given the opportunity to accept baptism of desire before they died (the same way some adult non-Catholics are still saved the last second of their life because God reveals the faith to them and gives them the opportunity to enter the Church by baptism of desire in that last second) .
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And notice that they said "We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge.." So, they are not declaring it dogma that unbaptized babies don't go to limbo. They are only saying that there is a possibility and hope that these babies can enjoy the beatific vision - and they can say that since limbo has never been defined as dogma.
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But whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby isn't given a chance by God to accept the Catholic faith the last second before it dies. If the baby accepts the faith, then it receives sanctifying grace through baptism of desire. In the same way that there are non-Catholics who are now in heaven because, the last second of their life, God revealed the faith to them and gave them the last minute miraculous grace to enter the ark of salvation. So in reality, these non-Catholics died as Catholics (unbeknowest to us) because of their last minute baptism of desire. Below is an example of such an instance. The grace the Jєωιѕн mother received the last second of her life, can also be given to a baby right before it dies from abortion or miscarriage.
THE STORY OF AN EXTRAORDINARY AND SINGULAR GRACE
In 19th Century France, there was a Jєωιѕн concert pianist of great promise. His name was Hermann Cohen. His virtuosity not only made him a bright star in the salons of Paris, but merited for him the honor of being widely recognized as a re­spected associate of the Hungarian, Franz Liszt(1811-86), one of the greatest pianists of all time. Then suddenly, in the midst of his growing fame, Hermann Cohen, unaccountably and quietly, slipped away from the concert circuit into virtual oblivion.
Several years later, he caused one of the greatest sensations of the hour when he reappeared in the streets of Paris dressed in the garb of a Carmelite monk. He had undergone a wondrous spiritual con­version to the Catholic Faith. On fire with his new found Faith, he quickly applied for admission to the Order of Mount Carmel and was warmly accepted. He was vested in the Religious habit and given the name in Religion of Augustine. In due course he pronounced the solemn vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience, completed his theological studies and was ordained to the priesthood.
Father Augustine's inspired zeal and tireless mis­sionary labors soon became even more celebrated among the Parisians than his masterful keyboard performances of old. As once with unparalleled passion he strove to fill the ears of his audience with the beauty of sound, now with even greater passion, he strove to fill them with the beauty of eternal Truth.
Although the holy Carmelite was unceasing in prayer for the conversion of his beloved mother, she died without being received into the Church. Fa­ther Augustine was deeply grieved that his mother should die an unconverted
Jєωess, but let us see how our merciful Lord, whom he loved so tenderly, con­soled him.
The death of Madame Cohen took place on December 13, 1855. Father Augustine was at the time preaching the Advent sermons in Lyons. He announced the sad news to a friend in Cuers in the following touching words:
"God had just inflicted a terrible blow on my heart. My poor mother is dead,...and I am in uncer­tainty. Nevertheless, so many prayers have been offered up for her, that we must hope that something special occurred between her soul and God, of which we know nothing. I have been ordered to Paris to console my family."
The sorrow of the son was great; but his hope in the infinite goodness of God supported him. He was to preach on the evening when this crushing news reached him. Many in his place would have been totally unfit for the duty; but he, after weeping and praying much, ascended the pulpit as usual. He preached on death; and, according to the testimony of all that heard him, it was in words that sank into the lowest depths of the hearts of his audience, exciting salutary and durable emotions. And when, toward the end of his discourse, he breathed his own sorrow into the souls of his audience, his words found in every heart a sympathetic echo.
Not long afterward he confided to the holy Cure of Ars his anxiety about his mother's death -- departing this life without the grace of Baptism. "Hope,"said the man of God to him, "hope! You will one day, on the Festival of the Immaculate Conception, receive a letter which will be very consoling to you."
These words were nearly forgotten, when on December 8, 1861, six years after his mother's death, a letter was handed to Father Augustine by a priest of the Society of Jesus. The writer of the letter had died in the odor of sanctity. Her letter was as follows:--
"On the 18th of October, after Holy Communion, I found myself in one of those moments of intimate union with our Lord wherein he so sweetly makes me feel His presence in the Sacrament of His Love, that it seems to me as if faith were no longer necessary in order to believe in it. After some moments He made His voice audible to me, and was pleased to give me some explanations relative to a conversation that I had had the previous evening. I remembered then that, in this conversation, one of my friends had expressed to me her astonishment that our Lord, who promised everything to prayer, had nevertheless remained deaf to those of Father Hermann, so often offered up for the conversion of his mother; her surprise amounted almost to discontent, and I had found some difficulty in making her understand that we must adore the justice of God, and not seek to penetrate His secrets. I have the boldness to ask our Lord how it was that He, who is Goodness itself, could have resisted the prayers of Father Hermann, and not grant the conversion of his mother. This was His answer:
" 'Why will ___ always seek to sound the secrets of My justice, and try to penetrate into mysteries that she cannot understand? Tell her that I owe my grace to no one, that I give to whomsoever I please, and that in acting thus I do not cease to be just, and Justice itself. But let her know also that,sooner than fail in the promises that I have made to prayer, I would overthrow the heavens and the earth and that every prayer that has My glory and the salva­tion of souls for its object is always heard, when it has the necessary qualities.
"He also said: 'And to prove this truth to you, I will let you know what took place at the moment of the death of Father Augustine's mother.' . . . I was made to understand, the moment that the mother of Father Hermann was on the point of breathing her last, when she seemed deprived of consciousness, and life was almost gone, Mary, our good, Mother, presented herself before her Di­vine Son, and prostrating herself at His feet, said to Him:
'Grace, mercy, O my Son! For this soul that is about to perish. Another moment and it will be lost, lost for all eternity! . . . The soul of his mother is what is dearest to him; a thousand times he has consecrated it to me; he has con­fided it to the tenderness, to the solicitude of my heart. Can I allow it to perish? This soul is mine; I want it, I claim it as a heritage, as the price of Thy Blood, and of my sorrows at the foot of Thy Cross.'
"Hardly had the most holy suppliant ceased to speak, when a grace, strong, mighty, escaped from the source of all graces, the adorable Heart of Jesus, and fell upon the soul of that poor dying Jєωess, and triumphed instantly over its obstinacy. The soul immediately turned with loving confidence toward Him whose mercy pursued her even in the arms of death, and she said:
'O Jesus, God of the Christians, God whom my son adores, I believe, I hope in Thee, have mercy on me!'
"In this cry which was heard by God alone, and which came from the lowest depths of the heart of the dying woman, there were included sincere regrets for her obstinacy and her sins, the desire of Baptism, the explicit wish to receive it, and to live according to the rules and precepts of our holy religion if she could return to life. This outburst of faith and hope in Jesus was the last sentiment of this soul; as she was uttering it before the throne of Divine Mercy, the feeble threads that still held her in her earthly tenement were broken, and she threw herself at the feet of Him who had been her Saviour before being her Judge. "Af­ter having shown me all these things, our Lord added:
'Make this known to Father Augustine; it is a consolation that I wish to grant to his long sufferings, in order that he may everywhere bless and cause to be blessed the goodness of My Mother's heart and her power over Mine.'
"An entire stranger to the Rev. Father Hermann, the poor sick woman that has just penned these lines is happy to think that they will bring consolation and balm to the ever-bleeding wound of his heart - the heart of a son and a priest. She presumes to ask of him the alms of his fervent prayers, and she hopes that he will not refuse them to one who, although unknown to him is united to him by the sacred bonds of the same faith and the same hopes.."
What seems to add greater authority to this letter is the fact that it had been announced to Father Hermann six years before hand by the saintly Cure of Ars, as above mentioned.
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I knew what you said. While God can do this it is wrong for us to assume that he does(you will notice that Father Augustine did not), and private revelation does not have to be believed, what has been taught as a tradition of the Church does, Limbo is an example of one such traditonal teaching.
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Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...
In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.
Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.
Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.
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Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...
In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.
Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.
Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.
You have managed to put into words what I knew to be true but could not communicate, thank you Gladius
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Catholic conservatives criticized any effort to relegate limbo to oblivion.
Removing the concept from church teaching would lessen baptism's importance and discourage the christening of infants, said Kenneth J. Wolfe, a Washington-based columnist for the traditionalist Catholic newspaper the Remnant.
"It makes baptism a formality, a party, instead of a necessity," Wolfe said. "There would be no reason for infant baptisms. It would put the Catholic Church on par with the Protestants."
It would also deprive Catholic leaders of a tool in their fight against abortion, he added. Priests have long told women that their aborted fetuses cannot go to heaven, which in theory was another argument against ending pregnancy. Without limbo, those fetuses presumably would no longer be denied communion with God.
Baptism with water remains a fundamental step to salvation in Catholic doctrine, and the new docuмent urges parents to continue to baptize their children.
"There is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," the report said.
http://www.latimes.com/news (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-limbo21apr21,0,3792206.story?page=2&coll=la-home-headlines)
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Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.
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Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.
protestants believe all kinds of stupid things, trust me I've have spoken to more than I ever cared to in order to defend our faith from their vile attacks.
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Actually it depends on which of the many thousands of denominations you have encountered. Each one has a different view (allbeit that they are all erroneous and similarly related).
The statements of the vatican are nothing short of a denial of Catholic teaching.
According to this new teaching of the Vatican, abortion would seem to be a good thing, since they are all going to heaven, why chance that child growing up and losing salvation? Why not just kill it and send it to the Father?
This is an assertion that everyone is immaculately conceived, and that baptism is pointless. This is an attack on the immaculate conception. What then is the point in the Catholic faith?
Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV On the Sacraments in general: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them... men obtain of God... the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema"
Council of Trent, Sess. VII, Can. V, On Baptism: "If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
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Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...
In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.
Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.
Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.
What about the fact that God gave enlightened the babies killed by Herod with supernatural faith and thereby gave them the chance to accept their martyrdom for the faith?
I also know of one story of a 2 year old who died in sanctity at that age and who possessed more supernatural faith than most Catholic adults - I read about her life story in an article but forgot her name and where I read it. What she understood about the faith and suffering no normal 2 year old can.
I am not saying that every aborted or miscarried child ends up being given the chance to accept the faith - just like not every non-Catholic is given the chance the last moment of their life. I think who God decides to give the grace of baptism of desire the last second of their life might depend on the prayers of the child's parents or loved one (such as Fr. Augustine's case who prayed for his mother) or the fact that, had the child not died or been killed, one or both of the parents would have baptised the child.
There is also the fact that God knows from all eternity who belong to Him. Recall this Sunday's gospel reading where Jesus said:
"I am the Good Shepard, and I know Mine and Mine know Me...And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd."
This is the reason why God gives miraculous graces of conversion to some sinners and non-Catholics while to others he does not? Because there are those who are "predestined" to belong to Him that He must call back to the fold. So for those babies that are of His sheep but that would be killed before they can enter His fold, He can still call to Him by granting the opportunity of baptism of desire before they get killed.
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What about the fact that God gave enlightened the babies killed by Herod with supernatural faith and thereby gave them the chance to accept their martyrdom for the faith?
Simply this: there is no such fact.
The Holy Innocents were shields for the Divine Infant, and thus deserved a special recompense.
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So for those babies that are of His sheep but that would be killed before they can enter His fold, He can still call to Him by granting the opportunity of baptism of desire before they get killed.
No, He cannot, as they cannot "desire" anything.
The Holy Innocents were killed precisely because Herod was trying to kill the Christ Child - this is not the case with any other murdered baby.
Your point about God's foreknowledge of things (like which souls are predestined and which are not) can actually be used, and more effectively, to support what I am saying.
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No, He cannot, as they cannot "desire" anything.
The Holy Innocents were killed precisely because Herod was trying to kill the Christ Child - this is not the case with any other murdered baby.
Your point about God's foreknowledge of things (like which souls are predestined and which are not) can actually be used, and more effectively, to support what I am saying.
Why can't babies not be able to desire baptism? Are you saying that God can not miraculously enlighten the mind of a baby so that it can understand the same way an adult can?
How does God's foreknowledge of which souls are predestined to be His sheep suppor your theory - I think it supports mine.
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Are you saying that God can not miraculously enlighten the mind of a baby so that it can understand the same way an adult can?
No, I am not - and to ask such a question of me at this stage causes doubt as to whether your line of argumentation is unduly influenced by some emotional attachment to this question.
Did I not say, just a little further up this very page, that such a thing as you suggest would be a miracle? In fact, I am the one who pointed it out in the first place. So long as something is not a contradiction (for example, the old 'square circle' bit), it is within His omnipotence.
How does God's foreknowledge of which souls are predestined to be His sheep support your theory - I think it supports mine.
As God knows which souls are predestined and which are not, can He not simply order it so those infants who are murdered before birth are among the number of those He already knows shall not see His face?
You seem to have ignored the fact that the Holy Innocents is not a parallel to the case of babies murdered by their own mothers in a scenario that has no connection to the Christ Child. You mentioned this non-existent parallel as a "fact" - it is not. Do you still hold it to be such?
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As God knows which souls are predestined and which are not, can He not simply order it so those infants who are murdered before birth are among the number of those He already knows shall not see His face?
Yes, that can be a possibility. But so can my theory which says that He can also save, through baptism of desire, those babies that He knows are predestined to be of His flock. Both our theories are possible. And since we don't know which theory is correct, we can say, as the Church is now saying, that there is HOPE.
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If I'm following correctly, the parallel would not be in any similarity between the deaths of the Holy Innocents and other infants, but in the manner in which God communicated with them: He would be "bringing up" the former to the age of reason so as to confer on them the glory of willed martyrdom and bringing up the latter to the age or reason so as to allow for their being baptized by desire. (Of course, the Holy Innocents were already in the way of salvation if they were eight days old and had observant Jєωιѕн parents.)
One could point to the "miraculous" manner in which all human beings will be brought up or down to the age of Christ at the time of His Death and Resurrection -early to mid thirties- to draw a picture in which the scenario of God's previously having brought unbaptized infants up to the age of reason might seem more plausible.
The fact is that theologians were permitted to reason along these lines in the days of Pope Pius XII. They wrote books which only priests read. I recall that one was named Glorieaux or something like that. But they were blown out of the water by theologians with better sense and a firmer grasp of dogmatic history and theological principles. That's what is bound to happen if we're taking pre-Vatican II Revealed Truth and Church Teaching seriously.
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If I'm following correctly, the parallel would not be in any similarity between the deaths of the Holy Innocents and other infants, but in the manner in which God communicated with them: He would be "bringing up" the former to the age of reason so as to confer on them the glory of willed martyrdom and bringing up the latter to the age or reason so as to allow for their being baptized by desire.
We have no proof - none - that He "communicated" with the Holy Innocents at all, nor that He miraculously assisted their faculties of intellect and will. This is pure speculation, and there is still no parallel at all in the most central point - the seeking of the death of the Christ Child, and the death of the Holy Innocents' in connection with it.
Of course, the Holy Innocents were already in the way of salvation if they were eight days old and had observant Jєωιѕн parents.
This is the only part that is demonstrable.
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I was just trying to follow the logic of the theory proposed. I was granting for the sake of argument that what this so-far unnamed saint is said to have said was revealed to him or her about the Holy Innocents' being given some sort of special revelation so that they might consent to being martyrs for Christ might fall within the realm of possibility the way a private revelation about Our Lady's incorrupt body being hidden somewhere in the Holy Land, like the Ark of the Covenant, would not. And that therefore a parallel COULD reasonably (if presumptuously) be drawn to the very different case of infants generally receiving illumination that would result in their salvation and their ascent to the Beatific Vision as far as the proposed modus operandi goes.
My own thought is, "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile." But if we are willing to admit into this discussion at all a revelation about the Holy Innocents' consenting to martyrdom, we could allow that a parallel to unbaptized infants suggests itself, given what theologians who were allowed to roam wild by a pope whom we all see as a pope and were very influential speculated on that particular problem. Given also the veritable fixation on bringing modern comforts to the world to come on the part of eminent Churchmen and the faithful generally in modern times, which, for example, resulted in the pathetic yet hilarious embarrassment of the great Garrigou-Lagrange's run-down on how MANY the saved would be, Invincible Ignorance being so great a savior...
I myself think that it's a question of grasping at straws. But if the straws are there we have to give our theological adversaries leave to make the most of them before we huff and puff and blow their straw house down.
Let's face something. Let's own up to something. It's inevitable, this drive to theologize cozily about the souls of poor little tykes, however the Councils pontificated... Who made it so? I would say that it was the peerless Aristotelian genius who speculated that there was joy beyond all telling and not even the pain of loss in a domain that he accepted as part of Hell.
I think that speculations on the fate of unbaptized infants which go beyond Aquinas' radiant paradise of a hell are bound to start savoring of heresy against the Church teachings cited in a post or two above if they are pressed too hard, and presumptuously said to be probable. I would ask all the questions that have already been asked here. I would want to know how one alleged REVELATION BY GOD to a Saint about the Holy Innocents in particular can help to render theologically probable ARBITRARY HUMAN SPECULATIONS about the general fate of unbaptized infants which at the least seem to fly in the face of Church Teaching.
"Those who die in original sin go to Hell." But who besides children below the age of reason dies with original sin only? (The retarded and adults who have been comatose since early childhood, I guess...) I don't see how any Catholic with a Catholic Sense could fail to recoil from proposing theories that render this Church Teaching a "meaningless formula."
"Ah, you say that, yet Aquinas..." Aquinas nonetheless placed unbaptized infants on the borders of Hell. He as well as Augustine taught that they were damned. That's as good as it gets as far as theological probability and anything that could be called Church Teaching. We can pray all we want that things might be better for unbaptized babies in the world to come in ways we could never comprehend. But what's the point of positing incomprehensible possibilities about the next world at the risk of sinning against Definite Truth that we can and should comprehend in this world? The Truth about what kinds of souls go where when as taught by Popes and Councils.
Things are never going to get any better theologically for unbaptized infants than they are in Aquinas' book. Not without doing violence to the Church as Teacher.
No, we have no proof that God "communicated" with the Holy Innocents at all. Nor do we even have so far any proof that any Saint ever said anything on the subject of the Holy Innocents as martyrs with extraordinary self-awareness as such. I just thought it would be nice in an informal forum to allow that the poster above was recalling correctly, and that there was something to what the Saint said, and therefore, possibly, something at least marginally respectable about the use of this saintly revelation to bolster what some sentimental but serious theologians have speculated about: the whole "Illumination" theory of salvation through baptism of desire on the part of infants.
The reference to the Saint rings true to me. It rings a bell. I do believe that a Saint said what is related above about the Holy Innocents consenting to martyrdom and that it was not expurgated from his or her Acta in the interests of not getting any unsound theological balls rolling.
I could not agree that it is PURE speculation on the part of a Catholic today that God miraculously enhanced or developed or what have you the intellects and wills of the Holy Innocents if that Catholic can prove that a single saint claimed to have had a revelation that such was the case. (Though, of course, the private revelation of a saint would be no proof at all in the theological sphere, the way, say, a certain tendency among the Greek Fathers to anticipate Thomas Aquinas as to the fate of unbaptized infants was proof to proffer against those who may have wanted to project to the Church itself the strict Augustinian opinion on the subject.) I would be much more impressed by a canonized saint than by one who was just acclaimed as a saint in the early days. Would this be Gertrude the Great, by any chance? Bridget of Sweden? Frances of Rome? Veronica Giuliani? Mary Magdalene of Pazzi?
How about getting a name to go with the anecdote? Even though outside of Inspired Writ statements by Saints about their private revelations have little weight in theological disputes, I suppose that if someone wants to propose that God grants special enlightenment to all or some unbaptized infants that they may attain to heaven, it's not out of bounds to produce as support, or at least a Church-approved step in their direction, a revelation from a saint in a book available to the faithful that God granted special enlightenment to the Holy Innocents that they might have the glory of CHOOSING to die for Christ.
"Ah, so God CAN do extraordinary things with the intellects of infants. And God wills that all men be saved. And God is a loving Father. And Jesus loved the little children. And it's a long way from Augustine to Aquinas as regards the fate of unbaptized infants. Of Mary never enough. Of the Mercy of God never enough. And not a sparrow falls... All of which has got me to thinking..."
Now THAT is pure speculation. Speculative theology, though. Does it come from a School to whose defense any Pontiff ever came, as happened with the Schools that taught Limbo? Well, I would say no....
See, now we are not talking about salvation all around, left and right, for unbaptized infants because The People are more and more upset about the fates of abortion victims and Christ united Himself to every man in becoming man. We're talking about things the Queen of Heaven is said to have said to saints and about saving baptism of desire for infants through extraordinary "illumination." At worst we're back in the Catholic world of the 1940s. Which means we're not in New Pentecostland cerca April 2007, which is a good place not to be Limbo-wise, or anything-wise, if you know what I mean...
How sad to be reminded that it IS AD 2007. That there is something new in the Limbo mix for all of us, though our views on what it is before God vary widely. The ITC docuмent excerpts of which we have read. But then, our views of where and what God's Church is today vary widely.
As for it being the CHURCH that is proposing anything new and different on Limbo recently... I wonder how different Catholics who are trying to remain orthodox for different reasons would reject the claim that it is the Church Herself that is saying something on the subject of Limbo of late. Sedevacantists would reject that claim for obvious reasons. Those who recognize the Vatican II popes or "popes" as popes but more or less resist them insofar as they deviate from Tradition might say that the ITC docuмent is just a pernicious product of the Concilar Church of Rome and not the Eternal Catholic one, though the Pontifical signature on the docuмent would give them pause.
But I think that even a WANDERER school non-Traditionalist conservative who accepts without reservation Vatican II Itself and the Novus Ordo Mass and unresistingly honors Benedict XVI as Holy Father, and duly notes the latter's approbation of the theologians' theorizing (and implied scolding of both St Augustine and St Thomas, among others), would nonetheless take exception to the formula "The Church is now saying this and that about Limbo etc...", referencing the recent ITC docuмent. That's not a very "nuanced" claim. And nowadays everything should be very "nuanced." That's what the Renewed Church's bishops and approved theologians say. A LOT.
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Thank you, Cletus.
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I'm having trouble with limbo and Pope Pius XI's encylical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore... please help.
7. "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."
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What is your problem with it, kato?
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What is your problem with it, kato?
well, doesn't it go against limbo? babies baptised or not do not deliberately sin
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Limbo isn't punishment. My understanding of it is that without baptism we may not enjoy the beatific vision. Limbo is a place of happiness, though not the highest happiness. But this is why a parent's responsibility is so very grave.
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Limbo is a place of happiness, though not the highest happiness.
It is a place of the highest possible natural happiness, glimpses of which we often experience even while in via. The major difference is that we know these are fleeting, and that we are in a position to obtain much, much more, while those in limbo are in complete possession of this happiness, and cannot ever lose it.