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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Limbo damned to hell...
« on: April 20, 2007, 10:04:02 PM »
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  • Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation'

    By John Thavis
    Catholic News Service

    VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After several years of study, the Vatican's International Theological Commission said there are good reasons to hope that babies who die without being baptized go to heaven.

    In a docuмent published April 20, the commission said the traditional concept of limbo -- as a place where unbaptized infants spend eternity but without communion with God -- seemed to reflect an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."

    The church continues to teach that, because of original sin, baptism is the ordinary way of salvation for all people and urges parents to baptize infants, the docuмent said.

    But there is greater theological awareness today that God is merciful and "wants all human beings to be saved," it said. Grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ's special love for "the little ones," it said.

    "Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision," the docuмent said.

    "We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge," it added.

    The 41-page docuмent, titled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized," was published in Origins, the docuмentary service of Catholic News Service. Pope Benedict XVI authorized its publication earlier this year.

    The 30-member International Theological Commission acts as an advisory panel to the Vatican, in particular to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Its docuмents are not considered expressions of authoritative church teaching, but they sometimes set the stage for official Vatican pronouncements.

    The commission's docuмent said salvation for unbaptized babies who die was becoming an urgent pastoral question, in part because their number is greatly increasing. Many infants today are born to parents who are not practicing Catholics, and many others are the unborn victims of abortion, it said.

    Limbo has never been defined as church dogma and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God's mercy.

    But limbo has long been regarded as the common teaching of the church. In the modern age, "people find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness," the new docuмent said.


    Parents in particular can experience grief and feelings of guilt when they doubt their unbaptized children are with God, it said.

    The church's hope for these infants' salvation reflects a growing awareness of God's mercy, the commission said. But the issue is not simple, because appreciation for divine mercy must be reconciled with fundamental church teachings about original sin and about the necessity of baptism for salvation, it said.

    The docuмent traced the development of church thinking about the fate of unbaptized children, noting that there is "no explicit answer" from Scripture or tradition.

    In the fifth century, St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without baptism were consigned to hell. By the 13th century, theologians referred to the "limbo of infants" as a place where unbaptized babies were deprived of the vision of God, but did not suffer because they did not know what they were deprived of.

    Through the centuries, popes and church councils were careful not to define limbo as a doctrine of the faith and to leave the question open. That was important in allowing an evolution of the teaching, the theological commission said.

    A key question taken up by the docuмent was the church's teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation. That teaching needs interpretation, in view of the fact that "infants ... do not place any personal obstacle in the way of redemptive grace," it said.

    In this and other situations, the need for the sacrament of baptism is not absolute and is secondary to God's desire for the salvation of every person, it said.

    "God can therefore give the grace of baptism without the sacrament being conferred, and this fact should particularly be recalled when the conferring of baptism would be impossible," it said.

    This does not deny that all salvation comes through Christ and in some way through the church, it said, but it requires a more careful understanding of how this may work.

    The docuмent outlined several ways by which unbaptized babies might be united to Christ:

    -- A "saving conformity to Christ in his own death" by infants who themselves suffer and die.

    -- A solidarity with Christ among infant victims of violence, born and unborn, who like the holy innocents killed by King Herod are endangered by the "fear or selfishness of others."

    -- God may simply give the gift of salvation to unbaptized infants, corresponding to his sacramental gift of salvation to the baptized.

    The docuмent said the standard teaching that there is "no salvation outside the church" calls for similar interpretation.

    The church's magisterium has moved toward a more "nuanced understanding" of how a saving relationship with the church can be realized, it said. This does not mean that someone who has not received the sacrament of baptism cannot be saved, it said.

    Rather, it means that "there is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," it said.

    The docuмent quoted St. Paul's teaching that spouses of Christians may be "consecrated" through their wives or husbands. This indicates that the holiness of the church reaches people "outside the visible bounds of the church" through the bonds of human communion, it said.

    The docuмent said the church clearly teaches that people are born into a state of sinfulness -- original sin -- which requires an act of redemptive grace to be washed away.

    But Scripture also proclaims the "superabundance" of grace over sin, it said. That seems to be missing in the idea of limbo, which identifies more with Adam's sinfulness than with Christ's redemption, it said.

    "Christ's solidarity with all of humanity must have priority over the solidarity of human beings with Adam," it said.

    Liturgically, the motive for hope was confirmed by the introduction in 1970 of a funeral rite for unbaptized infants whose parents intended to present them for baptism, it said.

    The commission said the new theological approach to the question of unbaptized babies should not be used to "negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament."

    "Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable -- to baptize them in the faith of the church and incorporate them visibly into the body of Christ," it said.

    The commission said hopefulness was not the same as certainty about the destiny of such infants.

    "It must be clearly acknowledged that the church does not have sure knowledge about the salvation of unbaptized infants who die," it said.

    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, was president of the commission and head of the doctrinal congregation when the commission began studying the question of limbo in a systematic way in 2004.

    U.S. Cardinal William J. Levada now heads the commission and the doctrinal congregation. Cardinal Levada met with the pope to discuss the docuмent Jan. 19 and, with the pope's approval, authorized its publication.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 05:17:39 AM »
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  • By this logic abortion is actually pretty good, think about it, if your murdered as a foetus you get to go straight to heaven without having to go through all the struggles you have to overcome in this life.

    If accepted it would also bring into doubt the existence or Original Sin and would make Baptism unnecessary.

    Either these theologians are idiots who are incapable of realising where there denial of Limbo will lead us, or they are intelligent enough to realise these things but that is actually where they want to go.  Either way it would be a disaster if such a thing would become widely accepted as fact.

    If they have a problem with a restrictive view of salvation then they should take their compliants up with God, afterall it was He who made it restrictive.

    I see their using the language of the Communists to, has the church ever previously spoke of solidarity before these last 100 years?  I seem to be coming across this word over and over again in the modern church.

    These are the fruits of secular humanism.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum


    Offline clare

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 06:11:36 AM »
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  • Much is made of the fact that Limbo is only a hypothesis, and not defined.

    ... Ignoring the fact that what is pretty well defined is that unbaptised infants, as a rule, are deprived of the Beatific Vision. As far as we know. That's not to say that God is bound by the Sacraments as we are. He can bend the rules. But we can't assume He always will.

    Get rid of Limbo, and Heaven is not the inevitable alternative final destination.

    Suffering in Hell is the alternative.

    Clare.

    Offline Trinity

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 08:18:34 AM »
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  • What strikes me is the unmitigated arrogance of those who think that they can throw wide the gates of heaven, and otherwise arrange God's creation to suit themselves.  Snake oil salesmen!
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 08:52:59 AM »
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  • The secular Humanism which has infected the minds of many theologians and influences their work will eventually lead to the heresy of either Universal Salvation or no salvation believing as it does in the false masonic dogmas of liberty equality & fraternity.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #5 on: April 21, 2007, 09:36:32 AM »
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  • It is not a case of "eventually", carolus.  It is already here.  Read Redemptor Hominis by JP2.  In this evil docuмent, he says that Christ, merely by virtue of the Incarnation, is united to all men - forever.  

    That is also why, as early as 1967, the mutilated form for the so-called consecration of the Precious Blood read: "...for you and for all men..."  This was only changed to "for all" because of the outcries that came from feminist quarters.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 09:41:02 AM »
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  • adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 09:47:22 AM »
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  • Pope Revises 'Limbo' for Babies
    Email this Story

    Apr 20, 2:36 PM (ET)
    http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070420/D8OKGGS80.html
    By NICOLE WINFIELD

    (AP) Newly elected Pope Benedict XVI waves to the crowd from the central balcony of St.Peter's Basilica,...
    Full Image

    VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.

    Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, which issued its long-awaited docuмent on limbo on Origins, the docuмentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.

    "We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press.

    Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians have long taught, however, that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God.

    Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.


    In the docuмent, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness."

    It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge."

    Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter.

    Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.

    The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum


    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 09:50:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.

    These are not suitable grounds for such a momentous decision, with these words they are openly admitting that the teaching on limbo is been changed because of the evil acts of the people who live during our present times.  This is nothing less than an admission of modernism in my eyes and a surrender to the devil.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007, 09:37:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.


    What in blazes does this mean?!#*
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #10 on: April 22, 2007, 06:23:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote
    Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the docuмent said.


    What in blazes does this mean?!#*


    It means "we know this decision of ours will make baptism unnecessary for salvation but if we openly admit this then we will be admitting to been heretics so we will make up some non sensical words which we can then point out to defend ourselves.

    Those words are nothing more than double speak otherwise known as speaking with a forked tongue.

    This is what happens when you try and be all things to all men, you end up been rejected as the charlatan that you must become in pursuit of this goal.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum


    Offline Magdalene

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #11 on: April 22, 2007, 03:38:16 PM »
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  • Since Limbo is not a defined dogma, we can still hope that unbaptized babies can make it to heaven. That is all the Church is saying now. Nothing heretical about that.

    Mary revealed to a saint (I forgot who) that when Herod killed the babies, the instant before they died, God granted these babies the opportunity to accept their martyrdom for the faith. In other words, they were given the opportunity to accept baptism of desire before they died (the same way some adult non-Catholics are still saved the last second of their life because God reveals the faith to them and gives them the opportunity to enter the Church by baptism of desire in that last second) .

    Offline Magdalene

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #12 on: April 22, 2007, 03:45:24 PM »
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  • And notice that they said "We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge.." So, they are not declaring it dogma that unbaptized babies don't go to limbo. They are only saying that there is a possibility and hope that these babies can enjoy the beatific vision - and they can say that since limbo has never been defined as dogma.

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #13 on: April 22, 2007, 04:38:45 PM »
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  • adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum

    Offline Magdalene

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    Limbo damned to hell...
    « Reply #14 on: April 23, 2007, 12:05:25 AM »
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  • But whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby isn't given a chance by God to accept the Catholic faith the last second before it dies. If the baby accepts the faith, then it receives sanctifying grace through baptism of desire. In the same way that there are non-Catholics who are now in heaven because, the last second of their life, God revealed the faith to them and gave them the last minute miraculous grace to enter the ark of salvation. So in reality, these non-Catholics died as Catholics (unbeknowest to us) because of their last minute baptism of desire. Below is an example of such an instance. The grace the Jєωιѕн mother received the last second of her life, can also be given to a baby right before it dies from abortion or miscarriage.


    THE STORY OF AN EXTRAORDINARY AND SINGULAR GRACE

    In 19th Century France, there was a Jєωιѕн concert pianist of great promise. His name was Hermann Cohen. His virtuosity not only made him a bright star in the salons of Paris, but merited for him the honor of being widely recognized as a re­spected associate of the Hungarian, Franz Liszt(1811-86), one of the greatest pianists of all time. Then suddenly, in the midst of his growing fame, Hermann Cohen, unaccountably and quietly, slipped away from the concert circuit into virtual oblivion.

    Several years later, he caused one of the greatest sensations of the hour when he reappeared in the streets of Paris dressed in the garb of a Carmelite monk. He had undergone a wondrous spiritual con­version to the Catholic Faith. On fire with his new found Faith, he quickly applied for admission to the Order of Mount Carmel and was warmly accepted. He was vested in the Religious habit and given the name in Religion of Augustine. In due course he pronounced the solemn vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience, completed his theological studies and was ordained to the priesthood.

    Father Augustine's inspired zeal and tireless mis­sionary labors soon became even more celebrated among the Parisians than his masterful keyboard performances of old. As once with unparalleled passion he strove to fill the ears of his audience with the beauty of sound, now with even greater passion, he strove to fill them with the beauty of eternal Truth.

    Although the holy Carmelite was unceasing in prayer for the conversion of his beloved mother, she died without being received into the Church. Fa­ther Augustine was deeply grieved that his mother should die an unconverted
    Jєωess, but let us see how our merciful Lord, whom he loved so tenderly, con­soled him.

    The death of Madame Cohen took place on December 13, 1855. Father Augustine was at the time preaching the Advent sermons in Lyons. He announced the sad news to a friend in Cuers in the following touching words:

    "God had just inflicted a terrible blow on my heart. My poor mother is dead,...and I am in uncer­tainty. Nevertheless, so many prayers have been offered up for her, that we must hope that something special occurred between her soul and God, of which we know nothing. I have been ordered to Paris to console my family."

    The sorrow of the son was great; but his hope in the infinite goodness of God supported him. He was to preach on the evening when this crushing news reached him. Many in his place would have been totally unfit for the duty; but he, after weeping and praying much, ascended the pulpit as usual. He preached on death; and, according to the testimony of all that heard him, it was in words that sank into the lowest depths of the hearts of his audience, exciting salutary and durable emotions. And when, toward the end of his discourse, he breathed his own sorrow into the souls of his audience, his words found in every heart a sympathetic echo.

    Not long afterward he confided to the holy Cure of Ars his anxiety about his mother's death -- departing this life without the grace of Baptism. "Hope,"said the man of God to him, "hope! You will one day, on the Festival of the Immaculate Conception, receive a letter which will be very consoling to you."

    These words were nearly forgotten, when on December 8, 1861, six years after his mother's death, a letter was handed to Father Augustine by a priest of the Society of Jesus. The writer of the letter had died in the odor of sanctity. Her letter was as follows:--

    "On the 18th of October, after Holy Communion, I found myself in one of those moments of intimate union with our Lord wherein he so sweetly makes me feel His presence in the Sacrament of His Love, that it seems to me as if faith were no longer necessary in order to believe in it. After some moments He made His voice audible to me, and was pleased to give me some explanations relative to a conversation that I had had the previous evening. I remembered then that, in this conversation, one of my friends had expressed to me her astonishment that our Lord, who promised everything to prayer, had nevertheless remained deaf to those of Father Hermann, so often offered up for the conversion of his mother; her surprise amounted almost to discontent, and I had found some difficulty in making her understand that we must adore the justice of God, and not seek to penetrate His secrets. I have the boldness to ask our Lord how it was that He, who is Goodness itself, could have resisted the prayers of Father Hermann, and not grant the conversion of his mother. This was His answer:

    " 'Why will ___ always seek to sound the secrets of My justice, and try to penetrate into mysteries that she cannot understand? Tell her that I owe my grace to no one, that I give to whomsoever I please, and that in acting thus I do not cease to be just, and Justice itself. But let her know also that,sooner than fail in the promises that I have made to prayer, I would overthrow the heavens and the earth and that every prayer that has My glory and the salva­tion of souls for its object is always heard, when it has the necessary qualities.

    "He also said: 'And to prove this truth to you, I will let you know what took place at the moment of the death of Father Augustine's mother.' . . . I was made to understand, the moment that the mother of Father Hermann was on the point of breathing her last, when she seemed deprived of consciousness, and life was almost gone, Mary, our good, Mother, presented herself before her Di­vine Son, and prostrating herself at His feet, said to Him:

    'Grace, mercy, O my Son! For this soul that is about to perish. Another moment and it will be lost, lost for all eternity! . . . The soul of his mother is what is dearest to him; a thousand times he has consecrated it to me; he has con­fided it to the tenderness, to the solicitude of my heart. Can I allow it to perish? This soul is mine; I want it, I claim it as a heritage, as the price of Thy Blood, and of my sorrows at the foot of Thy Cross.'

    "Hardly had the most holy suppliant ceased to speak, when a grace, strong, mighty, escaped from the source of all graces, the adorable Heart of Jesus, and fell upon the soul of that poor dying Jєωess, and triumphed instantly over its obstinacy. The soul immediately turned with loving confidence toward Him whose mercy pursued her even in the arms of death, and she said:

    'O Jesus, God of the Christians, God whom my son adores, I believe, I hope in Thee, have mercy on me!'

    "In this cry which was heard by God alone, and which came from the lowest depths of the heart of the dying woman, there were included sincere regrets for her obstinacy and her sins, the desire of Baptism, the explicit wish to receive it, and to live according to the rules and precepts of our holy religion if she could return to life. This outburst of faith and hope in Jesus was the last sentiment of this soul; as she was uttering it before the throne of Divine Mercy, the feeble threads that still held her in her earthly tenement were broken, and she threw herself at the feet of Him who had been her Saviour before being her Judge. "Af­ter having shown me all these things, our Lord added:

    'Make this known to Father Augustine; it is a consolation that I wish to grant to his long sufferings, in order that he may everywhere bless and cause to be blessed the goodness of My Mother's heart and her power over Mine.'

    "An entire stranger to the Rev. Father Hermann, the poor sick woman that has just penned these lines is happy to think that they will bring consolation and balm to the ever-bleeding wound of his heart - the heart of a son and a priest. She presumes to ask of him the alms of his fervent prayers, and she hopes that he will not refuse them to one who, although unknown to him is united to him by the sacred bonds of the same faith and the same hopes.."

    What seems to add greater authority to this letter is the fact that it had been announced to Father Hermann six years before hand by the saintly Cure of Ars, as above mentioned.