Author Topic: Limbo damned to hell... (Read 8522 times)

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2007, 06:22:07 AM »

I knew what you said. While God can do this it is wrong for us to assume that he does(you will notice that Father Augustine did not), and private revelation does not have to be believed, what has been taught as a tradition of the Church does, Limbo is an example of one such traditonal teaching.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2007, 06:45:57 AM »

Quote from: Magdalene

Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...

In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.

Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.

Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2007, 07:49:57 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Magdalene
Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...

In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.

Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.

Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.

You have managed to put into words what I knew to be true but could not communicate, thank you Gladius

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2007, 08:56:58 AM »

Quote

Catholic conservatives criticized any effort to relegate limbo to oblivion.

Removing the concept from church teaching would lessen baptism's importance and discourage the christening of infants, said Kenneth J. Wolfe, a Washington-based columnist for the traditionalist Catholic newspaper the Remnant.

"It makes baptism a formality, a party, instead of a necessity," Wolfe said. "There would be no reason for infant baptisms. It would put the Catholic Church on par with the Protestants."

It would also deprive Catholic leaders of a tool in their fight against abortion, he added. Priests have long told women that their aborted fetuses cannot go to heaven, which in theory was another argument against ending pregnancy. Without limbo, those fetuses presumably would no longer be denied communion with God.

Baptism with water remains a fundamental step to salvation in Catholic doctrine, and the new docuмent urges parents to continue to baptize their children.

"There is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," the report said.

http://www.latimes.com/news

Trinity · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:33:28 AM »

Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:58:52 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

Oddly enough at least some of the Baptists have beaten the Catholics to the punch in deciding that baptism is optional. They argue that Jesus meant natural birth when He said we must be born by water and the Spirit. So the route is already mapped.

protestants believe all kinds of stupid things, trust me I've have spoken to more than I ever cared to in order to defend our faith from their vile attacks.

Clodovicus · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2007, 01:24:01 PM »

Actually it depends on which of the many thousands of denominations you have encountered. Each one has a different view (allbeit that they are all erroneous and similarly related).
The statements of the vatican are nothing short of a denial of Catholic teaching.

According to this new teaching of the Vatican, abortion would seem to be a good thing, since they are all going to heaven, why chance that child growing up and losing salvation? Why not just kill it and send it to the Father?

This is an assertion that everyone is immaculately conceived, and that baptism is pointless. This is an attack on the immaculate conception. What then is the point in the Catholic faith?

Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV On the Sacraments in general: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them... men obtain of God... the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema"

Council of Trent, Sess. VII, Can. V, On Baptism: "If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Magdalene · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2007, 04:42:41 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Magdalene
Whose to say that an aborted or miscarried baby is not given the chance to receive baptism of desire the last second of its life...

In order to receive the grace of baptism in the manner you are mentioning, it is necessary to have the use of the intellect and the will. This is not the case with infants, etc.

Essentially, you are positing the occurrence of a miracle (for it would definitely be one in such a case) that allows an infant to use his (inoperative) intellect and will before his soul is separated from his body.

Why not posit that God, WHO COULD, works a miracle in the case of every single man, saving them all? An obstinate will is just as easily overcome by omnipotence as is an inoperative one.

What about the fact that God gave enlightened the babies killed by Herod with supernatural faith and thereby gave them the chance to accept their martyrdom for the faith?

I also know of one story of a 2 year old who died in sanctity at that age and who possessed more supernatural faith than most Catholic adults - I read about her life story in an article but forgot her name and where I read it. What she understood about the faith and suffering no normal 2 year old can.

I am not saying that every aborted or miscarried child ends up being given the chance to accept the faith - just like not every non-Catholic is given the chance the last moment of their life. I think who God decides to give the grace of baptism of desire the last second of their life might depend on the prayers of the child's parents or loved one (such as Fr. Augustine's case who prayed for his mother) or the fact that, had the child not died or been killed, one or both of the parents would have baptised the child.

There is also the fact that God knows from all eternity who belong to Him. Recall this Sunday's gospel reading where Jesus said:

"I am the Good Shepard, and I know Mine and Mine know Me...And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd."

This is the reason why God gives miraculous graces of conversion to some sinners and non-Catholics while to others he does not? Because there are those who are "predestined" to belong to Him that He must call back to the fold. So for those babies that are of His sheep but that would be killed before they can enter His fold, He can still call to Him by granting the opportunity of baptism of desire before they get killed.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:11:46 PM »

Quote from: Magdalene

What about the fact that God gave enlightened the babies killed by Herod with supernatural faith and thereby gave them the chance to accept their martyrdom for the faith?

Simply this: there is no such fact.

The Holy Innocents were shields for the Divine Infant, and thus deserved a special recompense.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #27 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:15:47 PM »

Quote from: Magdalene

So for those babies that are of His sheep but that would be killed before they can enter His fold, He can still call to Him by granting the opportunity of baptism of desire before they get killed.

No, He cannot, as they cannot "desire" anything.

The Holy Innocents were killed precisely because Herod was trying to kill the Christ Child - this is not the case with any other murdered baby.

Your point about God's foreknowledge of things (like which souls are predestined and which are not) can actually be used, and more effectively, to support what I am saying.

Magdalene · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2007, 10:57:46 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

No, He cannot, as they cannot "desire" anything.

The Holy Innocents were killed precisely because Herod was trying to kill the Christ Child - this is not the case with any other murdered baby.

Your point about God's foreknowledge of things (like which souls are predestined and which are not) can actually be used, and more effectively, to support what I am saying.

Why can't babies not be able to desire baptism? Are you saying that God can not miraculously enlighten the mind of a baby so that it can understand the same way an adult can?

How does God's foreknowledge of which souls are predestined to be His sheep suppor your theory - I think it supports mine.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2007, 11:19:05 PM »

Quote from: Magdalene

Are you saying that God can not miraculously enlighten the mind of a baby so that it can understand the same way an adult can?

No, I am not - and to ask such a question of me at this stage causes doubt as to whether your line of argumentation is unduly influenced by some emotional attachment to this question.

Did I not say, just a little further up this very page, that such a thing as you suggest would be a miracle? In fact, I am the one who pointed it out in the first place. So long as something is not a contradiction (for example, the old 'square circle' bit), it is within His omnipotence.

Quote

How does God's foreknowledge of which souls are predestined to be His sheep support your theory - I think it supports mine.

As God knows which souls are predestined and which are not, can He not simply order it so those infants who are murdered before birth are among the number of those He already knows shall not see His face?

You seem to have ignored the fact that the Holy Innocents is not a parallel to the case of babies murdered by their own mothers in a scenario that has no connection to the Christ Child. You mentioned this non-existent parallel as a "fact" - it is not. Do you still hold it to be such?