Cop out.

Cop out.

Submission to the proper authority a 'Cop out'?

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff

How can you ever know when something is heresy, then?

We can know and understand heresy, but when the Church tells us we are misunderstanding its constant teaching, it's best to listen to the Church and not ourselves.

First question:  Do you believe Benedict XVI is a Catholic or a heretic?

Second question:  Is he a pope or an antipope, according to you?

I think someone said Caminus believes in interpreting V2 in light of tradition.

I would be one of those.  That will likely answer your questions

I provide more than what is asked for, and I am insulted for it.

:wink:

Of course I do.  Otherwise, I wouldn't interpret V2 in light of tradition, as he has called Catholics to do.

So...

YES  

Lot's of people are heretics.  I don't bother with pronouncing them to be, nor do I bother deciding if they are formal or material, nor do I damn them.  It's not my job.  I typically avoid those whom I feel are a danger to my faith, otherwise I will tolerate them so I can hopefully demonstrate through example, though I have my shortcomings, as we all do.

As for the quote from Pope Innocent, it's fallible.  To pull a trick from your bag, it's no more binding than the quote I provided some time back endorsing the catechism as the source for teaching proper Catholicism.

If it is infallible, what a blessing for Benedict, he is being judged so much by yourself, I doubt God will judge him at all!  :roll-laugh1:

All joking aside, you have to prove still that you are understanding each decree as it was originally declared, and that Benedict is contradicting them.  We are not to 'understand them as children' or in an 'objective sense', we are to understand them as they were once declared, and that is why the church maintains that meaning, not you average lay person.

As for the quote from Pope Innocent, it's fallible.  To pull a trick from your bag, it's no more binding than the quote I provided some time back endorsing the catechism as the source for teaching proper Catholicism.

Okay, sure.  You still have Pope Leo XIII to deal with, who tells you that the man you follow is not a pope.

Besides, any teaching of the pope in his fallible capacity as teacher of the faithful that does not lead sin and is not heretical is to be obeyed and believed, until it is overruled by the Extraordinary Magisterium.

When a person publicly teaches contrary to this Magisterium, it is clear that he is not pope.

No.  And why is that?  Because no pope in the history of the Church was publicly heretical.  So starting with Benedict XV, we have had an UNPRECEDENTED situation in the history of the world.

I find it quite interesting, though not surprising, that you use quotes from a saint against quotes from a pope.

Do you not realize (actually, I'm almost certain you do) that I could just as easily pull a bunch of quotes from saints and theologians that support the sedevacantist position?