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Author Topic: Limbo?  (Read 715 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Limbo?
« on: May 11, 2021, 04:59:19 PM »
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    • Does Limbo actually exist? I heard that pretty much everyone in the Church for centuries held that unbaptized infants went to eternal hellfire and never questioned it. Cantate Domino also says the following:
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    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.[/color]
    this definition says that those not living within the Church will go to everlasting fire. So doesn't this mean Limbo at least has some fire in it? Auctorem Fidei of Pope Pius VI condemns the following statement.
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    26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,—false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.
    However this quote is very ambiguous and I don't even know what the Synod of Pistoia is saying. I came across this via this person debating with MHFM
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    3. While you are very willing to see nonexistent contexts, you fail to see a blatant context, in Auctorem Fidei: it's talking about the illegitimacy of a rejection of the 'limbo of lost infants' as a pelagian fable, which would be injurious to Catholic schools, just like it would be injurious to Catholic schools to call the 'baptism of desire/blood' a modernist fable. 
    Thoughts? I am kind of confused. I think limbo with small amount of fire seems possible.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #1 on: May 11, 2021, 06:55:24 PM »
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    • Torment by fire is a punishment for ACTUAL sin.

    Babies who die unbaptized (eg., those who die in the womb) commit no actual sin.

    Therefore, they are not punished by fire.

    St. Thomas Aquinas disagreed with St. Augustine on this point.

    Here’s an interesting article on this subject:

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/stlimbo.htm
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #2 on: May 11, 2021, 07:04:29 PM »
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    • You could think of Limbo as the deprivation of ever seeing God, but nevertheless being content in that state because of not knowing the alternative, seeing the face of God.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 07:17:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on May 11, 2021, 04:59:19 PM
    Does Limbo actually exist?
    .
    Dude, learn your catechism from a traditional catechism book, not the internet.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 07:23:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on May 11, 2021, 07:17:34 PM
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    Dude, learn your catechism from a traditional catechism book, not the internet.
    We don't know if Limbo exists. It is the common opinion for the past few hundred years before Vatican II, but before people thought that those unfortunates who died without baptism were damned to the pains of hell, and now, after Vatican II people are taught that they are in heaven. If we were really trads, we would go with the opinion of St. Augustine.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 07:29:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on May 11, 2021, 04:59:19 PM
    Does Limbo actually exist? I heard that pretty much everyone in the Church for centuries held that unbaptized infants went to eternal hellfire and never questioned it.

    Read all about it here:
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

    It's a very interesting history.  St. Anselm challenged part of this teaching, then Abelard, and then finally St. Thomas removed even the "pain of loss" from the equation.  Nevertheless, this created some consternation for St. Robert Bellarmine because he considered the Augustinian Tradition to be strong enough so as to make it de fide.  Basically, the vast majority of Catholic theologians followed St. Thomas on this question and disagreed with St. Robert Bellarmine.

    Of course, we Feeneyites use this as an example of the fact that just because theologians believe something nearly unanimously for a few hundred years, that doesn't make it de fide.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 07:37:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on May 11, 2021, 07:17:34 PM
    .
    Dude, learn your catechism from a traditional catechism book, not the internet.

    A bit harsh, but I agree.

    A teenager reading the Diminds will not likely end well.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 07:49:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 11, 2021, 07:37:49 PM
    A bit harsh, but I agree.

    A teenager reading the Diminds will not likely end well.

    Except that this issue has nothing to do with the Dimonds.  They do not reject the existence of limbo.

    I think that this issue is analogous to the consternation caused by the Church's condemnation of Galileo.  It caused a lot of grief for St. Robert Bellarmine, but nearly all theologians ended up going with St. Thomas Aquinas.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #8 on: May 11, 2021, 07:53:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
    Except that this issue has nothing to do with the Dimonds.  They do not reject the existence of limbo.

    I’m saying a teenager has no business reading anything the Dimonds have to say.

    You don’t learn the Faith by visiting the fringe......the far fringe....in fact so far they might not even be Catholic.

    Pick up a catechism instead.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 08:20:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 11, 2021, 07:53:18 PM
    I’m saying a teenager has no business reading anything the Dimonds have to say.

    You don’t learn the Faith by visiting the fringe......the far fringe....in fact so far they might not even be Catholic.

    Pick up a catechism instead.
    It is not from the Dimonds. I found it from a response to them. What I am curious about is how the part from Florence about how "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]those not living within the Catholic Church"  [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]  [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]will "[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."  [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Wouldn't that apply to unbaptized infants? You could maybe imagine limbo like the heat of a candle wick or something. [/color]
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Limbo?
    « Reply #10 on: May 12, 2021, 04:53:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on May 11, 2021, 07:23:48 PM
    We don't know if Limbo exists.
    Well, we know that the "Hell" mentioned in the Apostle's Creed is the Limbo of the Fathers and that it certainly existed, and we know that there has never been any teaching that it has ceased to exist.     
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