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Author Topic: LF Sources against BoD and BoB  (Read 7228 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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LF Sources against BoD and BoB
« on: October 24, 2022, 03:06:01 PM »
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  • Continuing from: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/answering-the-flat-earthers-robert-sungenis-live-wed-oct-19-2022/msg852211/#msg852211

    The book attached is the primary reason I believe in BoD and BoB. The thought that a heresy can spread inside the Church from the earliest days and later almost universally seems absurd to me. No, it is absurd.

    Therefore, what it will take to convince me that BoD and BoB are not required for belief is a demonstration how there was no consensus. Of course, I don't expect anyone to refute every single quote in the book, but let's start with Augustine and Ambrose since Ladislaus brought them up.

    Let's see first if they really believed in BoD and BoB and then we can move on to other fathers, doctors, etc. and see what the prevailing view looks like and if they're in agreement.

    Some clarifications:
    I hold baptism of desire applies to catechumens, i.e. those instructed in the faith.

    I reject salvation without belief in the mysteries of faith necessary for salvation (the Incarnation, Holy Trinity etc.). If you have some sources proving that, please go to the thread "LF Sources for Invincible Ignorance".

    I do not wish to engage in arguments from magisterial texts which implicitly refute BoD in this thread. The reasons are that we believe doctrines because the Church teaches them, not because we can conclude them ourselves and I've already looked into those arguments.

    I suggest you take a look at the book attached before engaging just to see what kind of body of evidence I'm talking about (yes, some quotes are bogus such as Singulari quidem, Quanto conficiamur, etc., please point out if you think some other quotes can be explained to not teach BoD/BoB.)


    As I said, I want to foster a discussion about which Saint believed what and I encourage you to post as many quotes of Catholics denying BoD explicitly.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #1 on: October 24, 2022, 04:47:00 PM »
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  • Compendia like the one you attach are extemely deceptive. Let's have a look at the ACTUAL status of this opinion in historical context.

    Firstly, it's incorrect to conflate BoB and BoD.  St. Robert Bellarmine admits that the Fathers were divided on BoD, and some of the Fathers who accepted BoB, rejected BoB, often in the same sentence.

    In favor of BoD, you can find only 2 Fathers (even those are debatable) who may have been constructed as "supporting" BoD:  St. Augustine and St. Ambrose.  Of these two, St. Augustine floated the idea very tentatively in his youth but then forcefully retracted after he had cuts his teeth battling the Pelagians, and some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence come from St. Augustine.  St. Ambrose, on the other hand makes a comment that could be read several different ways, but elsewhere rejected the notion, in his work De Sacramentis.

    Read here regarding the change in St. Augustine:
    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    When he first floated the idea, he said that he had gone back and forth on it, but then said, "I find ...", indicating that this was clearly his own personal speculative opinion and not something he had received from the Apostles.  But then I invite you read the above about how, after battlinng the Donatists and Pelagians, he realized the Pelagian implications of BoD.  St. Augustine engaged in a lot of theology right out of the gate, but then had to issue an entire book called "Corrections" later in life to correct his mistakes.

    With regard to St. Ambrose, he taught elsewhere:

    Quote
    Duties of the Clergy
    “'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'  No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”

    De Mysteriis
    "Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5]  Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace."

    So, did he contradict himself or change his mind?  If you look at what he said about Valentinian, St. Ambrose states that he hopes that those such as Valentinian could be "washed, but not crowned," stating that not even those who are martyred without having received the Sacrament are "washed, but not crowned."  I believe that he meant that they could be washed of the punishment due to their sins but not received the Beatific Vision (not be crowned).

    So you have 1/2 Father (early St. Augustine vs. late St. Augustine) and MAYBE (but IMO unlikely) St. Ambrose.

    On the other hand, you have in the AGAINST BoD camp the following Fathers:

    Late St. Augustine, Fulgentius (St. Augustine's disciple, clearl carrying forward the later opinion of St. Agustine), Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory nαzιanzen ("the Theologian").

    cited in the link above (can be found elsewhere):

    Quote
    Testimony of Three Theologians

    Before supplying Saint Augustine’s retractions I will quote three modern theologians to demonstrate the lack of unanimity among the fathers who raised the question directly or indirectly concerning baptism of desire: Fathers William A. Jurgens, Bernard Otten, S.J., and Karl Rahner, S.J.

    Father Jurgens: “If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again . . . etc.’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility. But the tradition in fact is there, and it is likely enough to be so constant as to constitute revelation.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3, pp. 14-15, footnote 31, my italics)

    Next, Rev. Bernard Otten, S.J., one-time professor of both Dogmatic Theology and the History of Dogma at the University of St. Louis, Missouri, in his Manual of the History of Dogma wrote: “Baptism of water, although ordinarily necessary for salvation, may be supplied by martyrdom, and under certain conditions also by the baptism of desire. The former was universally admitted, but the latter was apparently denied by Chrysostom and Cyril of Jerusalem.” (Vol. I, pg 351)  Abbot Jerome Theisen, O.S.B., in his book, The Ultimate Church and the Promise of Salvation, affirms the same of Saint Gregory nαzιanzen and adds Saint Basil as being opposed to the speculation.

    And, lastly, Rahner:

    “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)

    Rahner might also have included others among the fathers who denied the possibility of salvation for the unbaptized catechumen who died before receiving the sacrament.

    Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner at least had some intellectual honesty, as he would have loved to find the Fathers supporting his opinion, but he admits that they did not.

    Unfortunately, too many Trads don't have that same honesty as the Modernist.

    1) they conflate BoB with BoD (and list BoB Fathers as supporting BoD even when many of them clearly state that the ONLY alternative to Baptism in water is martyrdom)

    2) they have even gone so far as to lie and claim that the Fathers unanimously supported BoD.

    St. Robert Bellarmine himself concedes that the Fathers were at best divided on the matter of BoD.

    Thus, there's no evidence whatsoever that BoD was revealed teaching handed down from the Apostles, or otherwise, you would have found broad Patristic consensus and some statements to the effect that this teaching had been received from the Apostles.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #2 on: October 24, 2022, 04:53:11 PM »
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  • St. Augustine
    He actually says quite a bit more on this, see the link

    ON FORGIVENESS OF SINS AND BAPTISM.

    But those persons raise a question, and appear to adduce an argument deserving of consideration and discussion, who say that new-born infants receive baptism not for the remission of sin, but that they may have a spiritual creation and be born again in Christ, and become partakers even of the kingdom of heaven, and by the same means children and heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ. And yet, when you ask them, whether, if [infants are] not baptized, and are not made joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the kingdom of heaven, they have at any rate the blessing of eternal life in the resurrection of the dead, they are extremely perplexed, and find no way out of their difficulty. For what Christian is there who would allow it to be said, that any one could attain to eternal salvation without being born again in Christ, [a result] which He meant to be effected through baptism, at the very time when such a sacrament was purposely instituted for men being regenerated with a view to eternal salvation?

    Whence the apostle says : " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the laver of regeneration." This salvation, however, according to him, consists in hope, while we live here below. He says, " For we are saved by hope : but hope that is seen is not hope ; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." Who then could be so bold as to affirm, that without the regeneration of which the apostle speaks, infants could attain to eternal salvation, as if Christ died not for them ? For " Christ died for the ungodly."  As for them, however, who (as is manifest) never did an ungodly act in all their life, if also they are not bound by any bond of sin in their original nature, how did He die for them, who died for the ungodly ? If they were hurt by no malady of original sin, how is it they are carried to the Physician Christ, for the express purpose of receiving the sacrament of eternal salvation, by the pious anxiety of those who run to Him? Why rather is it not said to them in the Church : Take hence these innocents : "they that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick ;"—Christ " came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance?"


    St. Ambrose:

    'One is the Baptism which the Church administers: the Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost, with which catechumens need to be baptized . . . Nor does the mystery of regeneration exist at all without water: 'For unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom.' Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, with which he also signs himself; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." (De Mysterlls,-THE DIVINE OFFICE).

    There's plenty more and we could go on and on, but to what purpose? The Church has already officially and infallibly settled the matter for all time. Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #3 on: October 24, 2022, 04:59:49 PM »
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  • With regard to BoB, most Fathers did believe in it.  As far as can be discerned, and we have also the testimony of St. Augustine, the idea originated with St. Cyprian.  St. Augustine, again, cited St. Cyprian not as having received this teaching but as having based it on various arguments.  Recall that St. Cyprian promoted a doctrine regarding re-baptism that would later be declared heretical by the Church.

    Interestingly, though, when St. Cyprian refers to those who received this "BoB" (he didn't use the exact term) as having received the SACRAMENT of Baptism.  This has been written off as a mistake.  But was it?  At one point St. Cyprian referred to such as these having been washed in their blood while the angels pronounced the words.  This gives us a clue that what he was thinking was that in martyrdom the martyr's blood could supply for the water, while angels pronounced the form ... thus resulting in matter + form and the Sacrament of Baptism, confected extraordinarily with alternate matter and and alternate minister.

    Some references to "Baptism of Blood" refer to people who were known to have been baptized, such as the priest Lucian.  What was meant by this "Baptism of Blood," was a second baptism where all their sins were washed away, and thus the Catholic teaching that martyrs go straight to heaven.

    St. Ambrose refers to unbaptized martyrs as "washed but not crowned," again, where their sins are washed away but they do not enter the Kingdom (are not "crowned"), i.e. do not enter the Beatific Vision.

    During times of persecution, the Church ordered that all catechumens should be baptized.  Why?  If martyrdom was a Baptism, why was this necessary?

    This also could easily explain some references to the Saints who were said to be martyred catechumens.  Those who had been emergency baptized during times of persecution were nevertheless still considered catechumens, as they had not completed their instruction, and were not admitted to Holy Mass, Holy Communion, or the other Sacraments until the normal course of their instruction had been completed.

    When we get to the Council of Trent, we'll see that if one wants to read Trent the way proponents of BoD do, Trent actually rules out "Three Baptisms" and rejects a "Baptism of Blood" that does not reduce to a "Baptism of Desire".  But we'll come back to that later.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #4 on: October 24, 2022, 05:04:22 PM »
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  • Now let us look at the (probably dogmatic) decree of Pope St. Siricius (in A.D. 385):
    Quote
    Pope St. Siricius, Decree to Himerius, A.D. 385:

    LATIN: "Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.

    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.

    Quicuмque etiam discrimen naufragii, hostilitatis incursum, obsidionis ambiguum vel cuiuslibet corporalis aegritudinis desperationem inciderint, et sibi unico credulitatis auxilio poposcerint subveniri, eodem quo poscunt momento temporis expetitae regenerationis praemia consequantur.  Hactenus erratum in hac parte sufficiat; nunc praefatam regulam omnes teneant sacerdotes, qui nolunt ab apostolicae petrae, super quam Christus universalem construxit Ecclesiam, soliditate divelli.”

    Pope St. Siricius states that of those who "desire" Baptism and whom necessity prevents from receiving it, "each and every one of them" would lose "the Kingdom and life".  That last expression is a Latin rhetorical phraseology and means "the life of the Kingdom."

    This again hearkens back to St. Ambrose who states that by their desire some may be "washed" but that they cannot be "crowned", i.e. cannot enter the "life of the Kingdom".  Pope St. Siricius confirms with papal teaching that EACH AND EVERY ONE of those who desire Baptism, even if prevented by some necessity, are ineligible for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #5 on: October 24, 2022, 05:15:52 PM »
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  • So, after St. Fulentius, disciple of St. Augustine, rejected BoD, we have NO MORE MENTION of the subject again until we find it resurfacing in a pre-scholastic debate between Abelard (who rejected it) and Hugh of St. Victor (who accepted it).  That's where the story resumes, and I will come back later as I have more time to pick up from there.

    But thus far we find the following:

    1) no evidence (by way of Patristic dogmatic consensus) of BoD being revealed doctrine

    2) majority of Church Fathers rejected it (Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. John Chrysostom, later St. Augustine, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory nαzιanzen ("the Theologian"), St. Fulgentius

    3) only early St. Augustine promoted the idea, but he proposed it very tentatively and obviously as his personal speculation, but ...

    4) later St. Augustine retracted it and issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statement in existence

    5) St. Ambrose referred to what may be construed as a BoD, but stated that one could be "washed but not crowned" in such a scenario, and elsewhere denied that even good catechumens could be saved without the actual Sacrament

    6) Pope St. Sirius (dogmaticaly?) affirmed that each and every one of those desiring Baptism, yet prevented by some necessity, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven

    7) many Fathers accepting (and none known to reject) a Baptism of Blood, but ...

    8) St. Augustine attributing the notion to St. Cyprian's argumentation (rather than to received teaching)

    9) some ambiguous references, as they referred to people who had been Sacramentally baptized already

    10) St. Cyprian calling BoB a Sacrament, stating that the martyr's blood supplied for the water (the matter) while the angels pronounced the words (the form) ... thus suggesting it was just an alternative extraordinary mode of receiving the Sacrament (rather than some extra-Sacramental exception)

    11) St. Ambrose stating that even the martyrs are "washed but not crowned" (i.e. have the punishment of their sins remitted but cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven)

    12) the Church ordering the baptism of all catechumens during times of persecution (why if there's a BoB?)

    13) with these early-baptized catechumens still being considered to have the status of catechumen (thus explaining reference so the martyrdoms of "catechumens" considered saints)

    So THIS HERE is the accurate characterization of the status queaestionis in the early Church.  Compare that to the statements of those Catholic theologians and also even Karl Rahner.

    As I said, I'll resume the story then with the debate between Abelard and  Hugh of St. Victory, the next time after St. Fulgentius (disciple of St. Augustine who rejected BoD) this subject is found to have been brought up in Catholic sources.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #6 on: October 24, 2022, 05:20:32 PM »
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  • St. Augustine
    He actually says quite a bit more on this, see the link

    And there's a lot more at the link from St. Benedict Center (catholicism.org) above.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #7 on: October 25, 2022, 04:42:54 AM »
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  • I do not wish to engage in arguments from magisterial texts which implicitly refute BoD in this thread. The reasons are that we believe doctrines because the Church teaches them, not because we can conclude them ourselves and I've already looked into those arguments.
    This is where a BOD fails every time - it fails at actual, authoritative Church teachings every time, as well as Scripture.

    IMO, the only way  BODers who want to refute the non-BODers stand a chance of "converting" them, is to use those same "magisterial texts" to prove a BOD rather than ignore them, or have no authority in this matter.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #8 on: October 25, 2022, 06:09:47 AM »
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  • I hold baptism of desire applies to catechumens, i.e. those instructed in the faith.

    I reject salvation without belief in the mysteries of faith necessary for salvation (the Incarnation, Holy Trinity etc.).

    Yes, this is what I contend also.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #9 on: October 25, 2022, 08:00:21 AM »
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  • Yes, this is what I contend also.

    St. Robert Bellarmine limited it to FORMAL catechumens.  There's no evidence ANYWHERE that this "BoD" can apply to anyone other than a catechumen ... if you don't count the wishful thinking of various Modernists and neo-Pelagians.  Extension of BoD beyond Catechumens guts Tridentine Catholic ecclesiology, which is why when St. Robert asked the question, it was explicitly formulated as, "whether catechumens ...".  As even Rahner admits, the Church Fathers rejected the notion that anyone could be saved without visible adherence to the Church.  Catechumens had a visible and formal connection with the Church, an official status, as when they became catechumens they were marked with the sign of the cross and were called "Christian".

    Nevertheless, the evidence is strong that not even catechumens can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  One of the Church's dogmatic EENS definitions clearly states that there's no salvation "outside the Church of the faithful (fidelium)".  As Msgr. Fenton admits, the term fideles has always been a technical theological term that excludes catechumens (thus in the early Church, you had the "(part of the) Mass of the Catechumens" and "(part of the) Mass of the Faithful"), and he cites the history of this term.

    As we saw, the majority of the Church Fathers rejected salvation by BoD for catechumens also ... including even St. Augustine (in his post-Pelagian period, as proven by the catholicism.org article, and as conceded by Rahner) and St. Ambrose (in De Mysteriis where he states that catechumens who died without the Sacrament cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven).

    I do believe an an "analogous" Baptism of Desire, one which can "wash" the (punishment due to) sin, but which does not suffice for entry into the Kingdom, i.e. the Beatific Vision.

    So what do people make of the teaching of Pope St. Siricius where he says that each an every one of those who dies, while desiring Baptism but prevented by necessity, cannot enter the Kingdom?  Please explain.  As with a lot of issues, people cling to evidence that favors their position and ignore ("filter out") evidence that militates against their opinion.

    This teaching from Pope St. Siricius EXPLICITLY rejects that the desire for Baptism suffices for someone to enter the Kingdom when they are prevented by some necessity from receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #10 on: October 25, 2022, 08:20:05 AM »
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  • As with other things, I like to look at ALL of the evidence on both sides.  I see about a half dozen Fathers who explicitly rejected BoD.  I see a young St. Augustine clearly floating a speculation about BoD, but then a mature post-Pelagian St. Augustine rejecting it.  I see St. Ambrose expressing a hope that there may have been some "washing" for Valentinian (though not a "crowning"), and saying the same of martyrs as well, while elsewhere teaching that catechumens who die without the Sacrament cannot enter the Kingdom.  I see the teaching of Pope St. Siricius.  I see the practice of the Church to order the early baptism of catechumens during times of martyrdom (why if they believed in BoB?).  I see that St. Ambrose calls out that people were deeply afflicted by and grieving over the death of Valentinian without the Sacrament (why if they believed in BoD?).  I see the early Canons of the Church forbidding Christian burial for deceased catechumens.

    So my interpretation of ALL the evidence is that BoD was not revealed but was a speculation floated by a few individuals.  St. Augustine calls out why some were speculating, that it has to do with people reacting emotionally to seeing some devout catechumens died without the Sacrament while certain scoundrels who delayed Baptism so they could continue in their life of sin receiving the Sacrament on their deathbeds.  But St. Augustine refutes this thinking, saying that those who "wish to be Catholic" must reject it to prevent sprialing into a vortex of confusion.

    With regard to BoB, again, I see the Church ordering the early baptism of catechumens during times of persecution.  I see St. Cyprian describing it as a Sacrament.  I see St. Augustine indicating that St. Cyprian came up with the notion based on certain argumentation (suggesting it was not received teaching from the Apostles, but speculation).  I see St. Ambrose stating that unbaptized martyrs are "washed but not crowned".  I see some of the references to "BoB" actually referring to individuals who had already been baptized.

    Any comments from those who believe in BoD?

    Also, we know that God cannot be prevented by any impossibility from bringing the Sacrament to his elect (clearly taught by St. Ambrose and just basic Catholic theology ... God is not constrained by impossibility).  Why then is there a need for "BoD"?  Why would God will that some be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism where it would be just as easy for Him to provide it?  What do we make of all those miracles throughout history where saints raised people back to life to baptize them or God miraculously provided water and an opportunity for them to baptize?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #11 on: October 25, 2022, 08:52:43 AM »
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  • So after St. Fulgentius (died A.D. 533), the next mention of BoD we find in Catholic sources appears in the pre-scholastics, Abelard (d. 1142) and Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141).

    Abelard rejected Baptism of Desire, while Hugh of St. Victor prevented it.

    Peter Lombard (d. 1162) was trying to decide between the two, so he wrote to St. Bernard to get his opinion.

    St. Bernard sided with Hugh of St. Victor and then wrote (in 1130) in his Tractatus de Baptismo:
    Quote
    So, believe me, it would be difficult to turn me aside from these two pillars – I mean Augustine and Ambrose.  I confess that, whether in error or knowledge, I am with them; for I believe that a man can be saved by faith alone, provided he desires to receive the sacrament, in a case where death overtakes the fulfillment of his religious desire, or some other invincible power stands in his way.

    So here we have St. Bernard admitting that the opinion could be erroneous, but that he was basing his opinion on the authority of Augustine and Ambrose.  Of course, St. Bernard was unaware that St. Augustine retracted the opinion, and his assumption that St. Ambrose believed in it was also IMO incorrect.  Unfortunately, St. Bernard also errs in this passage by promoting the notion of salvation "by faith alone".  And he also contradicts St. Augustine by asserting that the possibility that "some ... invincible power [could] stand... in ... [the] way" of someone receiving the Sacrament.  Really?  Some invincible power could prevent God from bringing the Sacrament to His elect.  Why does he contradict the same St. Augustine on that point?  Here we see two gross errors on the part of St. Bernard, and so it's not unlikely that he did in fact err also in promoting Baptism of Desire.

    So, what of the other Church Fathers, who rejected BoD?  Were they just chopped liver?  We need to understand the context here that at this time there was a revival of interest in St. Augustine (more access to his writings), leading to an exaggeration of St. Augustine's authority, so much so that the Church needed to intervene and condemn the proposition that it is permitted to prefer a teaching of St. Augustine to the Church's Magisterium.  As the Church does tend to condemn propositions that no one holds, you can be sure that there were people out there who had this attitude.  And here too we have St. Bernard preferring the opinion of Augustine and Ambrose to the truth on the matter.

    To add some additional context, St. Bernard was a diedhard opponent of Abelard, being a proponent of what has been termed "mystic theology".  St. Bernard vehemently rejected Abelard's approach of applying reason to matters of faith.  St. Bernard was in fact dead wrong, and Abelard's system was actually THE precursor to scholasticism.  In fact, one might say that Abelard was the father of scholasticism.  Please see my analysis of the situatioin here:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/foundations-restored-a-catholic-perspective-on-origins/msg842251/#msg842251

    Also, an interesting note is that Fr. Laisney in his screed against "Feeeyism" DELIBERATELY OMITTED the expression "whether in error or knowledge" from this quote from St. Bernard, replacing the expression with ellipses.  Gotta love the intellecual honesty from the BoDers here.

    In any case, Peter Lombard went with St. Bernard on the BoD issue, and included the opinion in his work Sentences (1150), and that manual would heavily influence St. Thomas Aquinas and the other scholastics.  BTW, Lombard's book was based on Abelard's Sic et Non (Pro and Con), which was actually the foundation for scholasticism, that entire method of answering objections, etc. that St. Thomas was famous for.  Abelard invented that entire system and, though Lombard, it was picked up by St. Thomas.  This is the very methodology that St. Bernard condemned as being harmful to the faith and "sophistic".  St. Bernard was wrong.  And St. Bernard was wrong also about BoD.

    From the Sentences, St. Thomas picked up on BoD, and from St. Thomas, of course, it "went viral," so to speak, among theologians.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #12 on: October 25, 2022, 08:56:25 AM »
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  • Now, simultaneous to this development, we have Pope Innocent II weighing in also in favor of BoD (or so it's thought).  He appears to have been influenced by St. Bernard, as he uses the same language and the same argumet.  So Pope Innocent II deserves a separate treament, when I have more time later.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #13 on: October 25, 2022, 10:20:09 AM »
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  • Thank you very much Ladislaus. I am convinced neither St. Ambrose nor St. Augustine believed in BoD and St. Bernard falls with him too.

    I expect the other quotes in the book will fall in a similar way.

    After reading this thread and listening to some videos from schismatic-home-aloner I now tentatively lean towards rejecting BoD and BoB.

    To clarify my thinking process lest someone think I'm making rash judgments. I have already read quite a bit on the topic and my intellect was convinced by the various arguments from Magisterial docuмents by the Dimonds, however, I rather thought that I reasoned incorrectly than that I reasoned better than St. Augustine, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, etc. etc.

    What prompted me to reevaluate the issue was that Ladislaus and DigitalLogos, whose knowledge I respect, rejected BoD. Thank you both.

    Now that I see the consensus I thought was there is crumbling rapidly and now that I'm aware of Pope St. Siricius' and Pope St. Leo the Great's teaching and other saints who rejected BoD, I can no longer defer judgment to the collective teaching of the theologians since there is no such thing.

    I will continue to look into the matter and I hope to get the time to analyze each quote in the book and finally present a table for and against BoD.

    God bless you.




    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #14 on: October 25, 2022, 10:21:45 AM »
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  • The quotes for BoD which I next investigated because it seemed most authoritative were Canons 737 and 1239 which I found satisfactorily explained here: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/1917-code-of-canon-law/

    I wrongly presumed that the Code of Canon Law was universal discipline.


    BTW Lad, please continue to write, I find your writing most informative and enjoyable.

    I should finally get to studying for college instead of this so I'll check back tomorrow.