Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: LF Sources against BoD and BoB  (Read 33287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46895
  • Reputation: +27758/-5162
  • Gender: Male
Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2022, 05:20:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But, yes, let's jump to Trent.  I'll come back and deal with Innocent II and Innocent III later in more detail.  Trent did not teach that souls could ultimately be saved via justification by desire, and the language makes it unclear whether it was an either ... or proposition, or a both were required proposition.  I think it was more likely the latter, for reasons I can illustrate later.

    But justification is not salvation.  Post-Tridentine theologians regularly made that distinction, with some holding, for instance, that infidels could be justified but not saved.  That's also reflected in Dante, who put the Muslim Saladin in Limbo (justified, i.e. "washed" of guilt due to sin, but not saved).

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #31 on: October 26, 2022, 05:20:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No it doesn't.  Trent teaches that one cannot be justified without the Sacrament or the desire for it.  That last part is unclear and can be interpreted either way.  I'm torn about which way it goes, but lean toward the reading that both are required for justification.

    As for Baptism being OPTIONAL, that's blatantly untrue that "no one [of BODers] believes Baptism is optional".  Vast majority of BoDers do hold that it's optional, a nice to have, but not necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  Majority of BoDers are Pelagian heretics.


    It’s a double negative, but I’m happy to see that you are at least open to the way Saint Alphonsus interprets Trent. I then apologize for being so harsh in the other thread.

    I said that people who believe in BOD who believe BOD the way Saint Alphonsus teaches it, not the heretical way.

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #32 on: October 26, 2022, 05:22:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the first case, probably yes.  That has changed with time.  Initially, there was an actual ceremony in the early Church, where Catechumens were formally received by being signed with the sign of the cross.  Later, an appointed date for Baptism would probably have been construed as constituting someone a formal catechumen.  But if this one died before receiving the Sacrament, then I hold that he could not be saved, so it's something of a moot point for me.  I'm not sure how St. Robert would have answered the question or what the discipline was in his day for calling someone a catechumen.

    In the second case, probably not.  But, then again, you'd have to ask St. Robert.  That was his stipulation, the catechumenate.

    I don't believe either one of these could have been saved, as it was not God's will that they persevere to reception of the Sacrament.

    That was in fact thte teaching of St. Fulgentius (and the actual meaning of the Roman Catechism as well) that "confession" (of the faith) avails unto salvation because on its account God would keep him alive until he received the Sacrament.

    Fair enough, but I say definitely in both hypotheticals.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #33 on: October 26, 2022, 05:31:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's already been addressed above.  Apart from the fact that your'e conflating BoB ad BoD, as most BoDers do, there's no evidence that St. Emerentiana was not baptized.  During times of persecution, the Church generally commanded that catechumens be baptized, even though they continued to be considered catechumens, continued in their instruction, and were not allowed to receive the Sacraments until they completed the instruction.

    As I’ve said, the act of her martyrdom was specifically clarified in the Roman Martyrology to highlight the fact that she was not baptized. Proving a negative is unfair in this case, and the onus is clearly on you. I will tentatively admit that there is a difference in BOD and BOB, but either way it’s still is a deal breaker for those of the Fenneyite persuasion.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #34 on: October 26, 2022, 05:35:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, it's pretty clear that he's rejecting the possibility of entrance into the Kingdom for each and every one of those who, even while desiring Baptism yet prevented by some necessity, would die before receiving the Sacrament.

    Yes, you'll try to quote Innocent II and III, while claiming the latter are infallible, right?, but then deny infallibility to this quote.

    I'll get back to Innocent II, but it's disputed whether he even wrote the one letter, and Innocent the III, well, he had other issues.  Both were merely opining based on the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose" and not teaching anything, much less ot the universal Church, but in a letter to an individual bishop.  In a similar letter, the same Innocent III held that Mass was valid even if the priest just thought the words of consecration, over which St. Thomas rightly took him to task.

    No, I say neither are infallible, what gave you the idea that I considered my references to be infallible?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46895
    • Reputation: +27758/-5162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #35 on: October 26, 2022, 05:44:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, I say neither are infallible, what gave you the idea that I considered my references to be infallible?

    Well, St. Alphonsus said that Innocent II's De presbytero non baptizato made BoD de fide.  He was clearly mistaken.  That was on bizarre situationn.  How do you have a priest who's not baptized?  It's actually disputed whether Innocent II wrote it, or Innocent III, or neither one (as is noted even in Denzinger).

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46895
    • Reputation: +27758/-5162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #36 on: October 26, 2022, 05:48:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • As I’ve said, the act of her martyrdom was specifically clarified in the Roman Martyrology to highlight the fact that she was not baptized. Proving a negative is unfair in this case, and the onus is clearly on you. I will tentatively admit that there is a difference in BOD and BOB, but either way it’s still is a deal breaker for those of the Fenneyite persuasion.

    1) Nowhere does it say that she was not baptized.  It just says she was a catechumen and that she was baptized by her blood.  Elswhere it is said that a priest, St. Lucian, was also baptized by his blood.  He was obviously baptized also.

    2) Roman Martyrology is not infallible.  There's a Pope on record saying one had to be careful about it lest some of the stories be found spurious and bring the Church into ill repute.

    So the case of St. Emerentiana is inconclusive.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #37 on: October 26, 2022, 05:49:30 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • But, yes, let's jump to Trent.  I'll come back and deal with Innocent II and Innocent III later in more detail.  Trent did not teach that souls could ultimately be saved via justification by desire, and the language makes it unclear whether it was an either ... or proposition, or a both were required proposition.  I think it was more likely the latter, for reasons I can illustrate later.

    No need to illustrate it as you’ve already explained it to me in the past. The problem is your interpretation is something NEW. It is *impossible* for me to believe that EVERY single theologian, every pope, every bishop, and every Doctor of the Church, post Trent, interpreted Trent different from the way you interpret it. Every single one. All you are is a layman. Don’t you feel you are going out on a limb acting in this way? I appreciate the fact however, that you are not completely certain that you are correct and that you are willing to change your opinion. Bravo!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #38 on: October 26, 2022, 06:00:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, St. Alphonsus said that Innocent II's De presbytero non baptizato made BoD de fide.  He was clearly mistaken.  That was on bizarre situationn.  How do you have a priest who's not baptized?  It's actually disputed whether Innocent II wrote it, or Innocent III, or neither one (as is noted even in Denzinger).

    I’ll tentatively concede this, because I’m not certain that it was an infallible statement, but Trent is infallible and it seems to me that Saint Alphonsus relied more on Trent than Innocent II’s statement since he actually quoted Trent.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #39 on: October 26, 2022, 06:14:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) Nowhere does it say that she was not baptized.  It just says she was a catechumen and that she was baptized by her blood.  Elswhere it is said that a priest, St. Lucian, was also baptized by his blood.  He was obviously baptized also.

    2) Roman Martyrology is not infallible.  There's a Pope on record saying one had to be careful about it lest some of the stories be found spurious and bring the Church into ill repute.

    So the case of St. Emerentiana is inconclusive.


    I’m not saying that the Roman Martyrology is infallible, I’m pointing out that it is the (only?) record we have of her martyrdom and there is no question that the author went out of his way to point out that she was unbaptized. St. Lucian was not called a catechumen along with being baptized in his own blood. The author specifically makes the point that Saint Emerentiana was Baptized in her own blood AND was a catechumen also. The kicker is that absolutely no one, that we know of, for the last 1700 years has ever questioned the status of her lack of baptism until maybe the last 20 or 30 years.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46895
    • Reputation: +27758/-5162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #40 on: October 26, 2022, 06:45:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • It’s a double negative, but I’m happy to see that you are at least open to the way Saint Alphonsus interprets Trent. I then apologize for being so harsh in the other thread.

    I said that people who believe in BOD who believe BOD the way Saint Alphonsus teaches it, not the heretical way.

    That last sentence was unclear to me in your original because of your placement of the comma in front of ", as St. Alphonsus teaches it".

    Yes, it's a double negative in Trent.

    We cannot have a wedding without a bride or a groom.  [Both are required.  If either is missing, it's a no-go.]
    I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil. [Either one suffices.]

    Latin has the same ambiguity, as this a logical, not a grammatical problem.

    But as a proof text for this, immediately after this phrase, Trent cites Our Lord that "unless one be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit".  Water hearkens to the "laver" and the "Holy Spirit" to the votum ... as Trent just explained how the Holy Spirit inspired the dispositions necessary for Baptism ... which is how Catholic Encyclopedia defines votum (and not just as simple "desire").  So this would be like saying, "No one can be justified without water or else the Holy Spirit, because Our Lord taught that one cannot enter the Kingom without water AND the Holy Spirit."  That would make it nonsensical.

    Where Trent does clearly state that perfection contrition + the votum suffices for restoration to justification (in a baptized individual), Trent makes it very clear, using the disjunctive "vel ... vel" (a non-exclusive "either ... or" ... or both) and in another place "saltem in voto" (at least in desire).  And Trent could easily have used the same expression here, but didn't, just using a simple "aut" ("or").

    Other problems with "aut" (an exclusive disjunctive, tending to mean either ... or, but NOT both) is that it would imply that one could be justified by EITHER the Sacrament OR the votum, meaning that one could be justified by just the Sacrament without also having the "intention", but that's actually anathematized by Trent, which teaches that the Sacrament does not justify without the intention to receive it (recall that this section is speaking exclusively about adults, not infants).

    Another issue is that if Trent teaches that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire, that effectively rules out Baptism of Blood as being something separate from Baptism of Desire and that does not reduce ot it.  So St. Alphonsus, by holding to a Baptism of Blood that works "quasi ex opere operato" would be contradicting this teaching of Trent.  So the so-called "Three Baptisms" must now be considered "Two Baptisms."

    Ah, but you might say, this just means that even someone with BoB has to have the votum for it, i.e. must ALSO have the votum for it.  That completely undermines the interpretation of "aut ejusdem voto" being an exclusive or ... and REINFORCES the interpretation that this means (whether you receive the Sacrament ... or martyrdom ... you must ALSO have the desire for it).

    Finally, Trent made clear what the Council intended to define ... by putting the rejection of certain propositions in the anathemas section (the Canons).  BoD nowhere appears in the Canons.  Nowhere does Trent teach, "If anyone sayeth that a man cannot be justified without the votum alone, without having actually received the Sacrament, let him be anathema."  Just reading that sentence makes it sound aburd.  Church would never defined such a thing.  She has tolerated BoD speculation, but there's no evidence that BoD was revealed, and would never issue this type of absurd anathema.  One reading, agreed to by a BoDer here, just sees this as saying, "if you say that the Sacraments are not required ... at least by way of desire ... for salvation, you're a heretic".  In other words, it's saying that we must HOLD that at the very least there must be the votum for the Sacrament, but falling short of saying that we must hold that it CAN justify by itself.   If read this way, it would confirm that the Dimonds are wrong for considering BoD to be heresy.

    So ... there are just too many problems with claiming that Trent positively defines that it is possible to be justified (much less saved) without actual reception of the Sacrament.  It's clear that Trent does not condemn the notion (I know that Stubborn disagrees, but that's his opinion), but neither does it positively define it.  Trent did fall short of teaching that the ACTUAL reception of the Sacrament is required for justification, but it also did not positively teach that the VOTUM along could certainly suffice.

    As I mentioned, it was actually a pro-BoDer who cited some post-Tridentine theologians who made the justification vs. salvation distinction, holding for instance that infidels could be justified but not saved.  This harkens back to St. Ambrose who taught that it might be hoped that someone cold be "washed, even if not crowned" (that would be akin to justification but not salvation), being in Limbo (as Dante thought of Saladin) but not enjoying the Beatific Vision.

    Also, for something that's de fide, I've never seen so much disagreement about the details.  You have a different understanding of BoD for almost everyone who holds it.  To whom can it apply, under what conditions, etc.?  Some apply it only to catechumens, others to infidels, others to heretics (even the baptized ones, strangely enough).  Some say that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and incarnation are required, others that it suffices for someone to believe in a Rewarder God.  Unfortunately, the greatest common denominator among all these flavors is that "the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation" ... which is of course heretical.  We do not give the assent of faith to a "phrase" or a "word".  We assent to propositions.  I do not believe in "BoD", but I believe some proposition ... which is entirely unclear.  Which other dogma can we say this about, that we have no idea WHAT it is we have to believe about it.  Surely Trent would have clearly defined the propositions that must be believed, and would have condemned the contrary propositions with anathemas.

    So I personally do believe in a BoD, in the sense of a justification by "vow / intention / will" (as "desire" is too weak), but I do not believe that this state of justification can suffice for entry into the Beatific Vision (the "crowning", the "glory", the "seal").

    I hold that it is the Sacramental Character that impresses upon the soul the likeness of Our Lord, and causes God to recognize us as His (adopted) sons and adopted members of the Holy Trinity.  Also, the beatific vision is something beyond the capacity of our nature, so this character also endows the soul with the supernatural faculty to be able to see God as He is (a faculty we lack by nature).  So it is much more than some non-repeatability marker that some in Heaven have and others do not.  I hold it to be essential for the Beatific Vision.[/i]

    Finally, another issue I have with extending BoD beyond a catechumen is that it leads directly to the Vatican II ecclesiology.  Without this extended BoD, you could never have had Vatican II.

    MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church.
    MINOR:  Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and infidels can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and infidels can be inside the Church.

    So now we have the Vatican II franken-church here, which consists not only of Catholics but also of Prots, Jews, Muslims, infidels,  Nor can one say that they suddenly become "within the Church" at their death, since one of the EENS definitions clearly teaches they must be joined to the Church BEFORE their deaths.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46895
    • Reputation: +27758/-5162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #41 on: October 26, 2022, 06:54:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In any case, I'm not understanding how certain Trad priests can consider heretics those who read Trent this way.  Nobody is denying the authority of Trent, but simply understanding this particular teaching differently.  If I say that justification is possible by a so-called "Baptism of Desire" but that salvation requires the actual reception of the Sacrament for salvation, where exactly is that condemed as heretical by Trent?  Some post-Tridentine theologians held that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved.  We "Feeneyites" hold that people can be justified by the votum (which means much more than just "desire", as even Catholic Encyclopedia admits) but cannot be saved without the Sacrament.  Where is the heresy in that.

    But if I were pope, even if I did not condemn BoD outright, I would positively forbid all mention of it among Catholics and would order any references to it removed from Catholic books?  Why?  Because belief in BoD does no good whatsoever, but can do a tremendous amount of harm.  If BoD exists, then if God chooses to save someone that way, our disbelief in BoD makes no difference.  But this widespread belief in BoD undermines belief in the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation and leads inexorably to religious indifferentism and a non-Catholic ecclesiology.  Father Feeney famously pointed out the irony that belief in BoD could actually militate against BoD by weakening the fervent desire and intention of someone to receive the Sacrament, leaving some people with the desire for the desire of Baptism, but not a desire for Baptism itself.  It's a slippery slope, and you can clearl trace Vatican II back to the BoD theory.  Rahner remarked once (correctly) that THE SINGLE MOST revolutionary thing about Vatican II was its extension of a "hope for salvation" to those who weren't Catholics, and he was amazed that there was not a peep of objection to this by the conservative Fathers at V2.  He felt that all the other things in V2 derived from this foundation, and he was absolutely right.

    Father Feeney was just about the only one before Vatican II who saw the trainwreck coming.  Most people viewed the Church as vibrant and strong.  But he knew there was something wrong.  Initially he couldn't put his finger on it, but eventually, after much prayer and thought, came to the realization that the problem was EENS-denial that in turn was leading to religious indifferentism.  See, Father Feeney's battles with Cardinal Cushing preceeded any opinoion of his about BoD.  He was simply affirming EENS dogma.  Cushing on the other hand was quoted as saying, "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's gonna tell me that Christ came to die for any select group." (that's from his own favorable biographer).  Some of the rebukes of Father Feeney by his Jesuit superiors were even worse, directly verbatim rejecting EENS dogma.  And, when Father was excommunicated (for disciplinary reasons), the US newspaper headlines read, "Catholic Church affirms that there is salvation outside the Church."

    Vatican II didn't come out of nowhere or just suddenly materialize, and Father Feeney prophetically called it over a decade before it came to pass.  NOBODY else did.  NOBODY was rebuking the Catholic hierarchy for heresy and Modernism.  Except for Father Feeney.  But instead of realizing Father's heroic efforts, Trad Catholics even despise him as probably a greater heretic than Martin Luther, and hold that Cushing was just fine.  Cushing good, Feeney bad.  Cushing was a rabid Modernist (even outside of his EENS denial).  For some, being a "Feeneyite" is worse than being a Lutheran.  After all, the latter can be saved, but Feeneyites are outside the Church.  Thus I coined the term "Cushingites" as a comeback for the derogatory term "Feeneyite".  Well, I for one am proud to be a "Feeneyite".  Father Feeney was a heroic confessor and defender of the Catholic Faith, and he stood practically alone.  He had a lay following, but he was not supported by any in the hierarchy, and not even any other priests.  THAT took courage.  Trads today can clint to an Archbishop Lefebvre, but Father Feeney had no support, only rejection and derision.  He was clearly a "white martyr" for the Catholic faith.  Father Feeney, pray for us.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #42 on: October 26, 2022, 07:31:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Because belief in BoD does no good whatsoever, but can do a tremendous amount of harm.  If BoD exists, then if God chooses to save someone that way, our disbelief in BoD makes no difference. 


    You're getting at the core of the issue here. Which is that this hypothetical scenario devised by theologians, whose place it was to speculate about such possibilities, has been blown up to a doctrinal teaching of the Church by modern-day trad clerics and laity; when no such doctrine exists.

    There's a world of a difference between a theologian speculating on whether someone could be saved through desire for the Sacrament and the Church explicitly teaching it. The former exists and is tenable as an opinion, at least in the Alphonsian definition, but the latter does not exist at all de Fide; therefore the denial of it does not make someone a heretic.

    What does make someone a heretic is to lower the bar for salvation to essentially sola fide or Pelagianism, both of which are against Catholic doctrine and have been anathematized.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #43 on: October 26, 2022, 07:34:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • That last sentence was unclear to me in your original because of your placement of the comma in front of ", as St. Alphonsus teaches it".

    Yes, it's a double negative in Trent.

    We cannot have a wedding without a bride or a groom.  [Both are required.  If either is missing, it's a no-go.]
    I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil. [Either one suffices.]

    Latin has the same ambiguity, as this a logical, not a grammatical problem.

    But as a proof text for this, immediately after this phrase, Trent cites Our Lord that "unless one be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit".  Water hearkens to the "laver" and the "Holy Spirit" to the votum ... as Trent just explained how the Holy Spirit inspired the dispositions necessary for Baptism ... which is how Catholic Encyclopedia defines votum (and not just as simple "desire").  So this would be like saying, "No one can be justified without water or else the Holy Spirit, because Our Lord taught that one cannot enter the Kingom without water AND the Holy Spirit."  That would make it nonsensical.

    Where Trent does clearly state that perfection contrition + the votum suffices for restoration to justification (in a baptized individual), Trent makes it very clear, using the disjunctive "vel ... vel" (a non-exclusive "either ... or" ... or both) and in another place "saltem in voto" (at least in desire).  And Trent could easily have used the same expression here, but didn't, just using a simple "aut" ("or").

    Other problems with "aut" (an exclusive disjunctive, tending to mean either ... or, but NOT both) is that it would imply that one could be justified by EITHER the Sacrament OR the votum, meaning that one could be justified by just the Sacrament without also having the "intention", but that's actually anathematized by Trent, which teaches that the Sacrament does not justify without the intention to receive it (recall that this section is speaking exclusively about adults, not infants).

    Another issue is that if Trent teaches that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire, that effectively rules out Baptism of Blood as being something separate from Baptism of Desire and that does not reduce ot it.  So St. Alphonsus, by holding to a Baptism of Blood that works "quasi ex opere operato" would be contradicting this teaching of Trent.  So the so-called "Three Baptisms" must now be considered "Two Baptisms."

    Ah, but you might say, this just means that even someone with BoB has to have the votum for it, i.e. must ALSO have the votum for it.  That completely undermines the interpretation of "aut ejusdem voto" being an exclusive or ... and REINFORCES the interpretation that this means (whether you receive the Sacrament ... or martyrdom ... you must ALSO have the desire for it).

    Finally, Trent made clear what the Council intended to define ... by putting the rejection of certain propositions in the anathemas section (the Canons).  BoD nowhere appears in the Canons.  Nowhere does Trent teach, "If anyone sayeth that a man cannot be justified without the votum alone, without having actually received the Sacrament, let him be anathema."  Just reading that sentence makes it sound aburd.  Church would never defined such a thing.  She has tolerated BoD speculation, but there's no evidence that BoD was revealed, and would never issue this type of absurd anathema.  One reading, agreed to by a BoDer here, just sees this as saying, "if you say that the Sacraments are not required ... at least by way of desire ... for salvation, you're a heretic".  In other words, it's saying that we must HOLD that at the very least there must be the votum for the Sacrament, but falling short of saying that we must hold that it CAN justify by itself.  If read this way, it would confirm that the Dimonds are wrong for considering BoD to be heresy.

    So ... there are just too many problems with claiming that Trent positively defines that it is possible to be justified (much less saved) without actual reception of the Sacrament.  It's clear that Trent does not condemn the notion (I know that Stubborn disagrees, but that's his opinion), but neither does it positively define it.  Trent did fall short of teaching that the ACTUAL reception of the Sacrament is required for justification, but it also did not positively teach that the VOTUM along could certainly suffice.

    As I mentioned, it was actually a pro-BoDer who cited some post-Tridentine theologians who made the justification vs. salvation distinction, holding for instance that infidels could be justified but not saved.  This harkens back to St. Ambrose who taught that it might be hoped that someone cold be "washed, even if not crowned" (that would be akin to justification but not salvation), being in Limbo (as Dante thought of Saladin) but not enjoying the Beatific Vision.

    Also, for something that's de fide, I've never seen so much disagreement about the details.  You have a different understanding of BoD for almost everyone who holds it.  To whom can it apply, under what conditions, etc.?  Some apply it only to catechumens, others to infidels, others to heretics (even the baptized ones, strangely enough).  Some say that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and incarnation are required, others that it suffices for someone to believe in a Rewarder God.  Unfortunately, the greatest common denominator among all these flavors is that "the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation" ... which is of course heretical.  We do not give the assent of faith to a "phrase" or a "word".  We assent to propositions.  I do not believe in "BoD", but I believe some proposition ... which is entirely unclear.  Which other dogma can we say this about, that we have no idea WHAT it is we have to believe about it.  Surely Trent would have clearly defined the propositions that must be believed, and would have condemned the contrary propositions with anathemas.

    So I personally do believe in a BoD, in the sense of a justification by "vow / intention / will" (as "desire" is too weak), but I do not believe that this state of justification can suffice for entry into the Beatific Vision (the "crowning", the "glory", the "seal").

    I hold that it is the Sacramental Character that impresses upon the soul the likeness of Our Lord, and causes God to recognize us as His (adopted) sons and adopted members of the Holy Trinity.  Also, the beatific vision is something beyond the capacity of our nature, so this character also endows the soul with the supernatural faculty to be able to see God as He is (a faculty we lack by nature).  So it is much more than some non-repeatability marker that some in Heaven have and others do not.  I hold it to be essential for the Beatific Vision.[/i]

    Finally, another issue I have with extending BoD beyond a catechumen is that it leads directly to the Vatican II ecclesiology.  Without this extended BoD, you could never have had Vatican II.

    MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church.
    MINOR:  Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, and infidels can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, and infidels can be inside the Church.

    So now we have the Vatican II franken-church here, which consists not only of Catholics but also of Prots, Jєωs, Muslims, infidels,  Nor can one say that they suddenly become "within the Church" at their death, since one of the EENS definitions clearly teaches they must be joined to the Church BEFORE their deaths.


     This is a reasonable explanation and it seems to me you softened your stance a bit over the last year or so. Although I disagree with Fr. Feeney, and you by extension regarding justification, I don’t believe that it’s heretical to hold that view since you don’t deny that you can be justified by the desire for the sacrament. (If I understood you correctly) I hold that when someone is justified and they die at that moment, they will be saved. In any event, I don’t believe you are a heretic for holding that view, but I think you should be less confident in your views and trust the opinions of the authorities that God has given to us to follow.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #44 on: October 26, 2022, 07:38:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    I hold that when someone is justified and they die at that moment, they will be saved.
    Justified by what?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]