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Author Topic: LF Sources against BoD and BoB  (Read 7232 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
« Reply #165 on: November 13, 2022, 07:49:09 AM »
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  • Don't fall for this nonsense.  This is a tactic on his part to promote BoD.  That's why he "respects" the fact that you hold this opinion, because he's leveraging this to claim that Baptism of Desire can result in someone's salvation.  He has no respect whatsoever for anyone who doesn't believe in BoD.  He's even gone to the point of trying to ally with the Dimond Brothers (who consider him a heretic for both not being SV and for believing in BoD) ... because it's convenient to use as a line of attack.

    Those of us who do not believe that anyone can be saved without reception of the Sacrament can take our disagreement to another thread without letting this guy here derail this thread, which is about whether BoD can save.

    When the Dimond Brothers disagreed with the position of Father Feeney on this point, they were very polite about it and chalked it up to a mistake on his part, and pointed out that the common enemy of EENS try to exploit this attack on Father Feeney to justify their EENS denial.

    By turning the last couple BoD threads into us arguing amongst ourselves about justification and salvation, he's attempting to take our eye off the true common enemy, those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation.  Don't fall for it.

    Ladislaus,

    I've come back to this because I've seen you recently pull this crap again with someone else: impugn their motives and paint them uncharitably on the basis of your great insight into their soul - my tongue here solidly against my cheek of course.

    When you go off and hurl "morons" at people who disagree with you, one can check that off as simply your passion and vigor in argument; it's kind of entertaining actually, like when a person does something that will trigger a certain reaction in a dog, and then laugh at the cute and predictable response.

    But you go beyond that, giving us some insight into your truer character perhaps: I mean the accusing others of ulterior motives and "tactics," usually when it concerns one of your oh-so-clever-theories about justification/BOD, the "Prot judgment" and heresy of the R & R, etc. Like my "no respect whatsoever for anyone who doesn't believe in BOD" and my "attempting to take your eye off the true common enemy, those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation" above.

    It's more than your pomposity and self-love over your erudition (which I concede) and cleverness in figuring out what us simpletons can't: there's something darker there and sinister. Or is it simply that your infatuation with your own intellectual powers is so dominating that you simply can't help going "dark" in the above fashion whenever one of your cherished beliefs or opinions is in any manner challenged?

    How far off the mark your accusations are - such as with my hidden motive and tactics in "promoting" BOD - will be apparent in my expression of my feelings on the concept of BOD and how unnecessary the concept is in light of the truth of God's Predestination and Providence and His establishment of the sacramental system (I first quote St. Augustine):

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    Chapter 13 [X]—His Seventh Error. (See Above in Book II. 13 [IX.].)


    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 8846). Kindle Edition.


    This is St. Augustine's considered response to the idea that some of the predestined (infants) could be snatched away by death before they obtain baptism.


    It is also a very powerful response to those who would say that baptism of desire supplies for the lack of baptism in catechumen or other "just" among the elect (and some misguided souls also apply this to non-Christians) who do not receive baptism: the truth of predestination and God's law of the necessity of baptism makes a mockery of the thought of the need for such a "supply" as BOD provides.

    If only St. Augustine had written a passage in his later life explicitly confronting the idea of BOD as salvific in light of his mature understanding of Predestination, which he so eloquently talked about in his anti-Pelagian writings.

    And yet again the importance of this dogma of the faith, Predestination, and the long-reaching consequences of its recession from the front of the Catholic mind, is demonstrated: BOD, the salvation of non-Catholics, etc.

    God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants - page 4 - The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    Listen, moron (back at ya), I defend BOD in threads where you pop up to do your pontificating on the subject because I believe that the Church teaches it and I accept it, and because you're a hypocrite in my view for rejecting it while you paint yourself as submissive to the pre-V2 Ordinary Magisterium. In defending it I am doing what you profess to laud and virtue signal about: submitting to the hierarchy's teaching. And in defending it I also get the pleasure of confronting you, of course.

    And because you're either simply not as smart as you think you are - or truly malicious in not caring about truth when you are making yourself appear smarting than you really are - I am not criticizing you for rejecting an arguably non-solemn Magisterial teaching on what you believe are reasonable and necessary (since a commitment to truth must be necessary) grounds (I concede I do that as well), but on the hypocrisy of doing that in light of your profession of dutiful submission and its dominating requirement.  I hope this point is heeded and doesn't go over your head when you likely strike back at me for this post - but I predict the charge of hypocrisy will be one of your main thrusts, divorced from the truth of the matter though it be (at least in this instance, though I likely fall to the same vice on occasion). 

    I was a Feeneyite. I authored an anti-BOD thread on another Catholic site that has, last I looked, well over 100,000 hits. I believe the concept of a BOD is totally unnecessary and that it conflicts with the teaching of the necessity of the sacraments (see above). But our greatest doctors and saints have taught it, and the Church has in its authoritative catechisms and it is in common and popular expositions of the Catholic faith, e.g. Ott's Fundamentals. I have grown to appreciate what I believe is its justice and how it accords with the truth of God's justice, which rests "in the Spirit, not the letter." I respect the teaching, as I respect those who argue as I did against it with grace and charity (which I myself often lacked in defending its rejection).

    So there, and may this be the last: just wanted that on the record in light of your ongoing tyranny and repeated assertion of powers of discernment over the simple minds and ulterior motives and tactics of those who dare oppose you.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #166 on: December 09, 2022, 05:24:24 PM »
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  • I was directed to this section from Denzinger (388, 13th ed., 1954) to emphasize that BoD is taught as doctrine. BUT, of the variety proposed by the Doctors, NOT the Pelagian variety that has infected trad clerics.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #167 on: December 09, 2022, 05:37:28 PM »
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  • I was directed to this section from Denzinger (388, 13th ed., 1954) to emphasize that BoD is taught as doctrine. BUT, of the variety proposed by the Doctors, NOT the Pelagian variety that has infected trad clerics.

    No doubt BOD has been, and will be, latched onto by many heretics. But then again, Scripture is the Word of God, and heretics have been distorting its true doctrine since the ink was dry. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #168 on: December 09, 2022, 05:42:25 PM »
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  • I was directed to this section from Denzinger (388, 13th ed., 1954) to emphasize that BoD is taught as doctrine. BUT, of the variety proposed by the Doctors, NOT the Pelagian variety that has infected trad clerics.
    Did I read that correctly?  A priest that was not baptized?  How does that even happen?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #169 on: December 09, 2022, 06:35:11 PM »
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  • Did I read that correctly?  A priest that was not baptized?  How does that even happen?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #170 on: December 10, 2022, 10:10:30 AM »
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  • Did I read that correctly?  A priest that was not baptized?  How does that even happen?
    IIRC it was referring a to a Jєωιѕн priest

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #171 on: December 10, 2022, 08:58:03 PM »
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  • IIRC it was referring a to a Jєωιѕн priest

    No.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #172 on: December 10, 2022, 09:23:23 PM »
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  • I was directed to this section from Denzinger (388, 13th ed., 1954) to emphasize that BoD is taught as doctrine. BUT, of the variety proposed by the Doctors, NOT the Pelagian variety that has infected trad clerics.

    This was added to Denzinger by Rahner, and it's of dubious authenticity.  On top of it, IF it's actually written by THE Pope of even A Pope (it's disputed whether it would be Innocent II or III), it's clearly not a Pope teaching with HIS Apostolic authority but as a private doctor, stating that the faithful SHOULD hold the opinions of the Fathers.  Evidently this "Pope"(?) thought that the 6-7 Church Fathers who explicitly taught against BoD were chopped liver ... or else simply wasn't aware of them, as most in his day were acquainted primarily with St. Augustine.

    On top of this, the doctrine here is a "Baptism of Faith" and makes no mention of any kind of votum for Baptism, as -- what? -- he didn't know he hadn't been baptized.

    Best I can make of it is that this man was ordained a priest and then later (after his death?) it was ascertained that there was no record of his Baptism.

    But even Rahner has to admit that it's "of uncertain time" and "ascribed to" Pope Innocent the III. [in your text]  Actually, the more common attribution of this is to Innocent II.



    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: LF Sources against BoD and BoB
    « Reply #173 on: April 09, 2023, 02:57:23 AM »
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  • This diabolical inversion has gotten so bad that thsoe Catholics who in fact simply answer, "No.  Only Catholics can be saved." are denied the Sacraments and treated as heretics by Trad bishops and priests.  This is how deep the error and the heresy run.
    Realistically what are our options here? Most trad groups seems to be getting worse and worse (cough sspx), these other group who deny sacraments *should* be the alternative to the sspx but they are uncharitable to water baptism onlyers. I fear that eventually my old sspx priest will die and a novus ordo priest will replace him and I won't have access to Sacraments...