Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote

Just like the feeneyites, they also do not really believe in Baptism of Desire and Blood (which serve only as a "legitimate" distraction)

.... as taught by the Church, for in both cases, the Catholic FAITH is the most important foundation for these to occur, if ever. Yet, these modernists who happen to prefer the Tridentine Mass and as private individuals dare to judge the validity of a Pontificate, continue to be in open and heretical denial of this irrefutable fact.

Agreed, but it is not for private judgment to determine the minimum amount of Faith necessary.  

Agreed. There is not at all need of private judgment. It is actually all contained in the Athanasian Creed:

Quote

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living[16] and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

When did the defenders of the Catholic teaching of BOD say the Catholic Faith [supernatural Faith] is not necessary?

When believing that Baptism of Desire could ever apply to a Jєω at the point of death that has never known the Catholic religion, and therefore cannot possibly really wish for entrance to it.

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote

No, you are forcing a meaning into the text.  Where does the text say that one must be a member of the Church to be in the Church?

The poster Ambrose is here, again, proposing that there is salvation outside of the Church. Vatican II theology on display.

False, there is no salvation outside the Church!  Your false claim about me, does not make it true.

When the word "outside" is left at the mercy of the Modernists then it becomes relative and ceases to be true. When the word "outside" is left at the mercy of the Modernists, then it becomes subject to interpretation and so every lunacy becomes possible.

The 1949 letter of the Holy Office was nothing more than an authoritative reflection of the consensus of the theologians on this point.

The implicit Baptism of Desire is very carefully explained by both the theologians and the Holy Office.  

Here it is again in my words:

1.  There is absolutely no salvation outside the Church, no exceptions.

2.  The Sacrament of Baptism is the only way to become a member of the Church.

3.  For those not yet Baptized, but have an explicit or implicit desire to be Baptized and enter the Church this can justify a soul if: (see 4 & 5)

4.  The person has supernatural Faith.

5.  Perfect charity.

6.  The person who is desiring Baptism must truly seek Baptism and not have a false desire.  If the person dies prior to Baptism, he is saved through Baptism of Desire, and is mystically united to the Church through their desire, as Pope Pius XII explained in Mystici Corporis.

When proponents of your position misrepresent this by saying all sorts of untruths, it is scandalous and sinful.  This should never be about winning an argument, it must only be about the truth.

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote

No, you are forcing a meaning into the text.  Where does the text say that one must be a member of the Church to be in the Church?

The poster Ambrose is here, again, proposing that there is salvation outside of the Church. Vatican II theology on display.

False, there is no salvation outside the Church!  Your false claim about me, does not make it true.

When the word "outside" is left at the mercy of the Modernists then it becomes relative and ceases to be true. When the word "outside" is left at the mercy of the Modernists, then it becomes subject to interpretation and so every lunacy becomes possible.

The 1949 letter of the Holy Office was nothing more than an authoritative reflection of the consensus of the theologians on this point.

The implicit Baptism of Desire is very carefully explained by both the theologians and the Holy Office.  

Here it is again in my words:

1.  There is absolutely no salvation outside the Church, no exceptions.

2.  The Sacrament of Baptism is the only way to become a member of the Church.

You cannot be serious.
You first say the sacrament is absolutely necessary, then you say it isn't.

You talk just like Lover of Error or any other modernist NOer.

3.  For those not yet Baptized, but have an explicit or implicit desire to be Baptized and enter the Church this can justify a soul if: (see 4 & 5)

4.  The person has supernatural Faith.

5.  Perfect charity.

6.  The person who is desiring Baptism must truly seek Baptism and not have a false desire.  If the person dies prior to Baptism, he is saved through Baptism of Desire, and is mystically united to the Church through their desire, as Pope Pius XII explained in Mystici Corporis.

When proponents of your position misrepresent this by saying all sorts of untruths, it is scandalous and sinful.  This should never be about winning an argument, it must only be about the truth.

You do a fine job, a professional job of double talking yourself right into oblivion - at the delight of LoE.

Congratulations!

Quote from: Ambrose

The implicit Baptism of Desire is very carefully explained by both the theologians and the Holy Office.  

Here it is again in my words:

1.  There is absolutely no salvation outside the Church, no exceptions.

2.  The Sacrament of Baptism is the only way to become a member of the Church.

3.  For those not yet Baptized, but have an explicit or implicit desire to be Baptized and enter the Church this can justify a soul if: (see 4 & 5)

4.  The person has supernatural Faith.

5.  Perfect charity.

6.  The person who is desiring Baptism must truly seek Baptism and not have a false desire.  If the person dies prior to Baptism, he is saved through Baptism of Desire, and is mystically united to the Church through their desire, as Pope Pius XII explained in Mystici Corporis.

When proponents of your position misrepresent this by saying all sorts of untruths, it is scandalous and sinful.  This should never be about winning an argument, it must only be about the truth.

The emerging conclusion from this is that affiliation with the Church can be in desire and invisible, or why not?... even unconscious!. Liberalism and false "traditionalism" in the personification of the CI BODers are both faces of the same liberal progressive mask. Rahner would be very proud of these posters.

The result of this is that souls in false religions can actually belong to the Church unconsciously and be united to her by invisible ties, for they are affiliated with her internally, like the Modernists say, by an implicit desire,  which God is pleased to regard as equivalent to external membership.

Welcome to the end of all Catholicism!... Christianity... and all sanity.

This is the root of the unclean spirit of Vatican II and the fatal error that ends up in the Prayers of Assisi.

Your conclusions do not follow from the premises.  

The conditions for Baptism of Desire are certainly not going to apply to most in the world.  How many unBaptized are trying to get Baptized?  How many have supernatural Faith?  How many have perfect charity?  How many are honestly cooperating with God's grace to get Baptized and enter the Church?

Those not yet Baptized are in a very dangerous condition.

 The 1949 letter of the Holy Office was nothing more than an authoritative reflection of the consensus of the theologians on this point.  

At that point yes, when theologians and bishops had already fell into liberalism setting the stage up for progressive Vatican II Council, leaving the few traditionalists powerless.

At least modernist Rahner would show more honesty in his progressive approach than the radical sedevacantists BODers of CI. This type of comments may be expected from the Novus Ordo liberal crowd but are totally inexplicable for those who profess "tradition" and naively think that everything collapsed over night after Vatican II.  

Quote from: Ambrose

 The 1949 letter of the Holy Office was nothing more than an authoritative reflection of the consensus of the theologians on this point.  

At that point yes, when theologians and bishops had already fell into liberalism setting the stage up for progressive Vatican II Council, leaving the few traditionalists powerless.

At least modernist Rahner would show more honesty in his progressive approach than the radical sedevacantists BODers of CI. This type of comments may be expected from the Novus Ordo liberal crowd but are totally inexplicable for those who profess "tradition" and naively think that everything collapsed over night after Vatican II.  

Again, well said Cantarella!

The NSAAers simply refuse to acknowledge that even prior to Pope St. Pius X's time there were already modernist enemies infiltrated within the clergy.

In Pope Pius X's Pascendi Dominici Gregis promulgated in 1907, he starts off saying:

"...We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, nay, and this is far more lamentable, to the ranks of the priesthood itself.......vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church........We number such men among the enemies of the Church.......Nor indeed will he err in accounting them the most pernicious of all the adversaries of the Church. For as We have said, they put their designs for her ruin into operation not from without but from within."

The NSAAers act as though they believe that the pope's encyclical was only a warning for the future and that none of the heresies the pope was warning about were happening at that time.  

As such, they naively believe that prior to about 1962, the catechisms, sermons, teachings, theology manuals, encyclopedias, books and etc. were all automatically pristine. Yet errors like a BOD were already prevalent and being taught everywhere, and accepted everywhere, way back at and before the turn of the century, as the pope declares:

"And here we have already some of the artifices employed by Modernists to exploit their wares. What efforts they make to win new recruits! They seize upon chairs in the seminaries and universities, and gradually make of them chairs of pestilence. From these sacred chairs they scatter, though not always openly, the seeds of their doctrines; they proclaim their teachings without disguise in congresses; they introduce them and make them the vogue in social institutions........    

He is not speaking about something that might happen in the future, or something that could happen, he specifically states "here we have already some..."

NSAAers reject that prior to the 1960s, heresies were being taught by the clergy and accepted by the masses. They cannot fathom that by the 1930s and 1940s, that the enemy was already well situated within the hierarchy - even though Pope Pius X correctly said they were.  

The ultimate aim of the enemy is to destroy the Church completely, to rip it to shreds, to make it disappear. The devil knew that the best way to accomplish this is to get people to believe the heresy that there is another way to heaven, that the Church is not really necessary, that membership within the Church is optional, that some outside the Church can make it if they're good and ignorant people and that a sincere desire is just as good as the real thing.

These are the deceits of the devil and these deceits have engulfed the entire world and nearly the entire Church, and it took 100s of years to get to this point. But make no mistake about it, we are in this crisis because the foundational dogma of EENS and all the requirements that are associated with it have successfully been adulterated and all but obliterated, mostly from within, just as Pope St. Pius X warned.