Author Topic: Lest Anyone Think I am Exaggerating About These Heretics (Read 6139 times)

Ambrose · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2014, 08:06:56 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ladislaus
I want to hear it straight out of your mouth, Ambrose.

Given my views, do you consider me to be a Catholic?

You have basically stated that we are manifest heretics and are therefore outside the Church? Is it not true that you do not consider us Catholics?

My hope for you is that ignorance will excuse you.

When a Pope comes again and corrects this error, will you admit you were wrong, and accept Baptism of Desire?

JPaul · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2014, 08:12:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ladislaus
I want to hear it straight out of your mouth, Ambrose.

Given my views, do you consider me to be a Catholic?

You have basically stated that we are manifest heretics and are therefore outside the Church? Is it not true that you do not consider us Catholics?

Yes, but, even if we are outside of the Church, we can still be in it................

Emerentiana · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2014, 08:15:16 PM »

You. Are so uncharitable Cantrella! Calling a regular poster. DEMONIC. is just way over the top! The forum would be do much better without you! Must have had extensive teaching.from the Diamonds
I know so many people they have mixed up. One recanted her heretical. beliefs. before she died

Cantarella · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2014, 08:36:21 PM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

You. Are so uncharitable Cantrella! Calling a regular poster. DEMONIC. is just way over the top! The forum would be do much better without you! Must have had extensive teaching.from the Diamonds
I know so many people they have mixed up. One recanted her heretical. beliefs. before she died

In this you are completely right.

I retract any negative personal remark ever done to any poster in CI and I will abstain from doing so in the future.

And this be the opportunity to say:

Please whoever I have personally offended, accept my heartfelt and sincere apology. The intention of my posts is not to offend the person ever but to oppose the error.

I am sorry I have come across as uncharitable and retract any personal attack or negative adjective (referring to a specific poster) I have ever used in the discussions in CI.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2014, 09:13:08 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ladislaus
I want to hear it straight out of your mouth, Ambrose.

Given my views, do you consider me to be a Catholic?

You have basically stated that we are manifest heretics and are therefore outside the Church? Is it not true that you do not consider us Catholics?

My hope for you is that ignorance will excuse you.

Then why am I a Catholic but Jorge Bergoglio cannot be ... on the same grounds?

2Vermont · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2014, 05:53:49 AM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

TThanks Ambrose. :applause: :applause:I pray that Matthew bans these Feenyite heretics. I PRAY locking one thread is the beginning! If these Feenites took. Counsel from ANY. Trad priest they would know the truth!

At this point I would like to see that as well, but I doubt he will. There are way too many of them. It's best if we all just put them on ignore (although I totally see why Ambrose and a few others do not...and I appreciate their efforts).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #21 on:** August 16, 2014, 05:58:31 AM »

As I have pointed out, all the BoD threads are being started by the Cushingite Pelagians, and not the so-called "Feeneyites". If they truly wanted us to stop posting about BoD, the numskulls need only stop creating all these new threads.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2014, 06:20:57 AM »

You may also have noticed that MOST of us anti-BoDer / pro-EENS Catholics would not waste our time posting if in the process of upholding "BoD" you weren't actually undermining and rejecting Catholic dogma, if you weren't promoting Pelagianism, if you didn't reject Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments, if you didn't pervert Traditional Catholic ecclesiology. But you all know full well that this discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with BoD proper; it's about promoting your twisted ecclesiology. Most of you are Pelagian heretics who deny the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation (with perhaps only one or two among you being exceptions).

If you wanted to say that you thought a catechumen who died without having actually received the Sacrament of Baptism but having received it in desire could be saved, then I would say, "Peace. Go on your way." and wouldn't address it again.

But you rabidly reject the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation. I have actually "served up" on a silver platter for you the answer for how you can both uphold BoD while not rejecting the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation. But you ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to adopt the proper language and the proper Catholic perspective. I can find no other explanation for this other than obstinate Pelagian heresy, because, once again, you have no interest whatsoever in the rare case of a catechumen who dies before being able to be baptized; you're interested in Vatican II "subsistence" ecclesiology wherein any well-meaning pagan, heretic, or schismatic is really an invisible Catholic by virtue of niceness. THAT IS THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH YOU HERETICS. Even if I were to come around and embrace the opinion of BoD, I would STILL denounce you as heretics.

You strut about sanctimoniously pretending that you're some great defenders of the faith. Quite the contrary. Your defense of BoD causes my stomach to turn and makes me want to vomit it out of my mouth and spit it to the floor. You have done nothing but damage to your precious BoD by wrapping it up in layers of heresy and modernism. I find it repulsive. It is YOU who create "Feeneyites" by your Pelagian and ecclesiological heresies. You think that you're feeding us a prime steak, but then you spread layers of excrement on it and try to force feed it to us. So we find the steak itself repulsive. If you didn't layer your heretical excrement all over the top of BoD, some of us might be more receptive to the concept. So, well done, great heroic defends of the Faith against the great "Feeneyite" heresy of the day. "Bravo, Cushing." "Bad Feeney." Feeney is a greater enemy of the Faith than all the modernists who deny EENS.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2014, 08:20:38 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Emerentiana
TThanks Ambrose. :applause: :applause:I pray that Matthew bans these Feenyite heretics. I PRAY locking one thread is the beginning! If these Feenites took. Counsel from ANY. Trad priest they would know the truth!

At this point I would like to see that as well, but I doubt he will. There are way too many of them. It's best if we all just put them on ignore (although I totally see why Ambrose and a few others do not...and I appreciate their efforts).

From my perspective, these feeneyite types display a very serious, fundamental error. They seem to think it is proper to isolate individual Catholic truths, and then apply an interpretation to one truth that makes it contradict another truth. They fail to see how the parts form a whole, instead, their action divides the whole into parts.

As a Catholic, we are bound to everything the Church teaches, and when something that the Church teaches seems to contradict something else that the Church also teaches, it is our duty to find the manner in which the two truths do not oppose each other.

I have their posts on HIDE for a more basic reason, they are teaching without the authority to do so. They are not discussing the Faith in a charitable and friendly manner, rather they belittle and condescend others. These people are partisans of error, they choose to divide the faithful in much the same manner that a pack of wolves divide a flock of sheep to more easily prey on those unfortunately separated from the rest. The have no Superior to keep them in check, so their pride and arrogance is extended without bounds due to a lack of humility.

Matthew, this is your forum, a garden of sorts, and you alone are the caretaker. The yield you will obtain from your garden is directly proportional to care you provide. At this moment, in my opinion, weeds have overrun your garden to the point of choking out the product.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2014, 08:44:26 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

I have their posts on HIDE for a more basic reason, they are teaching without the authority to do so.

We are not "teaching" anything, but arguing our position. And what "authority" do you have?

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2014, 12:18:59 PM »

To be perfectly clear, I am not teaching anything here; I do not supply conjecture or commentary. I post approved and authorized references to sources that I typically have in my physical possession.

The feeneyites, on the other hand, have no source for their twisted theology other than themselves and their own warped reasoning. Some time ago, thinking that they might have some source or reference for their contrary position, I asked for any authoritative resource that they might have to support their position. All I received in return was condescension, calumny, and insults. These people demonstrate by their actions that they completely lack charity. Their self-made doctrine is their own self-made destruction.

bowler · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2014, 03:48:25 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

My hope for you is that ignorance will excuse you.

When a Pope comes again and corrects this error of yours , will you admit you were wrong, and accept Baptism of Desire?

Honest translation of what Ambrose really means, if Ambrose were a sincere person instead of a con-man weasel:

"When a Pope comes again and corrects this teaching of yours that people can't be saved unless they explicitly believe in Christ and explicitly desire to be Catholics, will you admit you were wrong, and embrace my loving teaching of salvation without water baptism, without explicit desire to be a Catholic and without belief in Christ, and the Trinity?"

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 16, 2014, 03:54:13 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ambrose
My hope for you is that ignorance will excuse you.

When a Pope comes again and corrects this error of yours , will you admit you were wrong, and accept Baptism of Desire?

And if a Pope came along and condemned Baptism of Desire, Ambrose would just declare the Holy See vacant again on the grounds of heresy.

bowler · « **Reply #28 on:** August 16, 2014, 04:17:39 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

To be perfectly clear, I am not teaching anything here; I do not supply conjecture or commentary. I post approved and authorized references to sources that I typically have in my physical possession.

The feeneyites, on the other hand, have no source for their twisted theology other than themselves and their own warped reasoning. Some time ago, thinking that they might have some source or reference for their contrary position, I asked for any authoritative resource that they might have to support their position. All I received in return was condescension, calumny, and insults. These people demonstrate by their actions that they completely lack charity. Their self-made doctrine is their own self-made destruction.

Your belief is that people can be saved without baptism, nor explicit desire to be Catholic, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity. THAT IS what keeps all these BODer threads going. Meanwhile, no BODer can produce one Father, Doctor, Saint or Council that teaches what they really believe.

The strict EENSers have clear dogmatic decrees teaching what they believe, there is nothing that they need to have explained away.

The clear uncompromising teaching of the doctrine that one must at least believe explicitly in the Incarnation (=Christ) and the Trinity for salvation, is the basis for the labors of all who seek to maintain and restore traditional Catholicity, though most of those who are engaged in this struggle have yet to realize the fact. Without at least this doctrine, assented to absolutely, and the condemnation of the opposing view, Traditionalists have no case nor argument against anything in Vatican II. Anyone who says they "don't condemn" the opposite opinion, by the very act, approve it, and thus become like the salt that looses its flavor, neutralized, precisely where the enemies of the Church want them to be neutralized.

Quote

But whoever dares to say: “Outside the Church is no salvation”, ought to be driven from the State
Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract, Book IV, Ch. 8

( http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/rousseau/social-contract/ )

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Vatican I
The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith. Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It confirms the unanimous opinion of the Fathers (considered infallible) as expounded in the ancient Athanasian Creed, it was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and it was clearly infallible decreed at the Council of Florence:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

Stubborn · « **Reply #29 on:** August 16, 2014, 04:24:17 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Ambrose
My hope for you is that ignorance will excuse you.

When a Pope comes again and corrects this error of yours , will you admit you were wrong, and accept Baptism of Desire?

And if a Pope came along and condemned Baptism of Desire, Ambrose would just declare the Holy See vacant again on the grounds of heresy.

The thing is, the only popes in the history of the Church who actually promulgate and live the heresy of Ambrose, are the conciliar popes, which he rejects are even popes - so that which he has been waiting for, have already been here for +50 years.

Ambrose is waiting for a "good pope" to promulgate error - his insanity has CMRI written all over it.

It is simply one other thing to add to the list -, namely, that all NSAAers like him are waiting for a "good pope" to define a BOD, which in itself testifies that a BOD has never been defined, yet they claim it is de fide. Aside from the fact that dogma can only be repeated, it is impossible for a "good pope" to change that which has already been defined.

Next, he rejects the previous "good popes'" decrees anyway. He looks for liberal interpretations and gross misinterpretations of defined dogma aka CMRI Fr. Barbara's "The salvation of those outside the Church" - So when a "good pope" finally repeats the defined dogma of Trent and decrees that the sacraments are a necessity, and that there is no salvation outside the Church - AGAIN, he will either reference any one of the liberal misinterpretations as per usual or, as you say, he will simply claim that "good pope" is not the pope at all.