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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20108 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #195 on: September 07, 2017, 05:59:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
    And what about areas of the world where there is strife and war? Or in the Communist countries during the Soviet era? Or Syria or China today? Are those who seek baptism under God's special protection to ensure that they will be baptized after instruction? What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?
    No, there isn't. How could there be? What are we even talking about if it were otherwise? History and simple reason alone shows this not to be the case. "Contra factum..."

    However, this is usually  where the equivocation besotted  "Conflation Tango" kick's off. Stand by for more BoD, KEY, MOU....
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #196 on: September 07, 2017, 06:21:55 PM »
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    • Men do not live where there is no water - they live near it, or pipe it in or bring it with them.

    The one thing we must have is water - and that is also the requirement God made for baptism.  

    How convenient.     
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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #197 on: September 07, 2017, 07:03:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
    And what about areas of the world where there is strife and war? Or in the Communist countries during the Soviet era? Or Syria or China today? Are those who seek baptism under God's special protection to ensure that they will be baptized after instruction? What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?
    Why do you ask miss/ma'am?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #198 on: September 07, 2017, 08:48:31 PM »
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    • Quote
    What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?

    St Paul writing to St Timothy, ch1
    I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:2...For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    For this is the will of God, your sanctification...  Thes 1:4


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    Therefore, if a soul dies without baptism, God allowed him to die for a reason and this soul's lack of baptism can only be blamed on his lack of cooperation with grace.

    Come on, man. Really.
    And what about unbaptized babies?

    Yes, really.  Babies are not responsible for being unbaptized, their parents are.  Therefore, their parents will suffer for this dereliction of duty.  However, unbaptized babies are not punished, for they go to Limbo.  Catholics would call Limbo a punishment because we understand the loss of heaven, but Limbo is still a natural happiness.  

    My sister is a nurse at a hospital and has baptized many babies who were in danger of death and they died shortly thereafter.  What a grace these babies received!  There were unfortunately some cases were she was not able to baptize the dying infant.  Why and who God chooses to be baptized is a mystery only known to Him.  But, an unbaptized person who goes to Limbo is not punished, they just aren't rewarded with heaven.  And heaven is promised to no one; it is a gift from God.  And to receive gifts from God we must cooperate with his grace.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #199 on: September 07, 2017, 11:08:41 PM »
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    • I clarified it below, to make you happy.  It is now more exact, but my point still stands.  I was talking about adults, originally.  You're the one who brought up infants, which is an exception to the rule.  


    Therefore, if a soul dies without baptism, God allowed him to die for a reason and this soul's lack of baptism can only be blamed on his [parent's] lack of cooperation with grace.  [Parents are responsible for their children's souls, therefore, any child that is not baptized is due to the parents' sin.  And the sin of the parents will affect the child, even though they are not liable.  

    If I sin through anger and slap you in the face, my sin inflicts pain upon you, even though you aren't liable.  

    Why God allows this?  Only He knows.  Perfect example is the situation of abortion.  How many millions upon millions of children are aborted and die unbaptized each year. Is this their fault?  No.  Do they still suffer?  Yes. Do they still lose out on heaven and go to limbo?  Yes.   Why does God allow this?

    I've heard some saints explain that the mystery of salvation is so great that God knew these children would, if they grew up, lose their souls, and He in His infinite mercy, hears the prayers of the despairing mother or family or those praying at the abortion clinics and, while He does not will their murder, His permissive will allows the sin to take place, due to free will, but, as only God can do, He brings goodness out of evil by sending these children to Limbo, where they otherwise would be in hell, if He allowed them to live.]


    O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!  (Rom 11:33)
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #200 on: September 07, 2017, 11:18:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2017, 11:08:41 PM
    I clarified it below, to make you happy.  It is now more exact, but my point still stands.  I was talking about adults, originally.  You're the one who brought up infants, which is an exception to the rule.  


    Therefore, if a soul dies without baptism, God allowed him to die for a reason and this soul's lack of baptism can only be blamed on his [parent's] lack of cooperation with grace.  [Parents are responsible for their children's souls, therefore, any child that is not baptized is due to the parents' sin.  And the sin of the parents will affect the child, even though they are not liable.  

    If I sin through anger and slap you in the face, my sin inflicts pain upon you, even though you aren't liable.  

    Why God allows this?  Only He knows.  Perfect example is the situation of abortion.  How many millions upon millions of children are aborted and die unbaptized each year. Is this their fault?  No.  Do they still suffer?  Yes. Do they still lose out on heaven and go to limbo?  Yes.   Why does God allow this?

    I've heard some saints explain that the mystery of salvation is so great that God knew these children would, if they grew up, lose their souls, and He in His infinite mercy, hears the prayers of the despairing mother or family or those praying at the abortion clinics and, while He does not will their murder, His permissive will allows the sin to take place, due to free will, but, as only God can do, He brings goodness out of evil by sending these children to Limbo, where they otherwise would be in hell, if He allowed them to live.]


    O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!  (Rom 11:33)
    How are two distinct objects "it"?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #201 on: September 08, 2017, 04:13:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
    And what about areas of the world where there is strife and war? Or in the Communist countries during the Soviet era? Or Syria or China today? Are those who seek baptism under God's special protection to ensure that they will be baptized after instruction? What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?
    And what about those areas of the world Meg? Certainly you would never say that strife, wars, communism and etc.  are obstacles to God - or is that what you are actually saying?

    Certainly you actually confess that strife, wars and etc. are nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever to the invincible God. We who have faith in Divine Providence unhesitatingly say that God would most assuredly provide the sacrament to everyone who sincerely desires it, regardless of the circuмstances and even if it took a miracle, or multiple miracles - after all, what is a miracle to God? - nothing, absolutely at all.

    Our Lord made the sacrament a necessity and Our Lord told us that whoever seeks, finds; whoever asks, receives - and the Church teaches us that we may be assured of obtaining everything we ask for....


    Whatever we ask necessary to salvation with humility, fervor, perseverance, and other due circuмstances, we may be assured God will grant when it is best for us. If we do not obtain what we pray for, we must suppose it is not conducive to our salvation, in comparison of which all else is of little moment. - Haydock

    The reasons why so many do not obtain the effects of their prayers, are,

    1st. Because they ask for what is evil; and he that makes such a request, offers the Almighty an intolerable injury by wishing to make him, as it were, the author of evil.

    2nd. Although what they ask be not evil, they seek it for an evil end.

    3rd. Because they who pray, are themselves wicked; (St. John ix.) for God doth not hear sinners:

    4th. Because they ask with no faith, or with faith weak and wavering: (St. James i.)

    5th. Because although what we ask be good in itself, yet the Almighty refuses it, in order to grant us a greater good

    6th. Because God wishes us to persevere, as he declares in the parable of the friend asking bread, Luke, ch. ii.; and that we may esteem his gifts the more.

    7th. We do not always receive what we beg, because, according to St. Augustine, God often does not grant us what we petition for, that he may grant us something more useful and profitable.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #202 on: September 08, 2017, 04:35:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on September 08, 2017, 04:09:57 AM
    Your new reformulation - "if a soul dies without baptism, God allowed him to die for a reason and this soul's lack of baptism can only be blamed on his parent's lack of cooperation with grace" - also fails, for many a man dies without baptism due not to his parent's failure, but his own. You asserted a new principle that conflicts with your first principle - that should have clued you into something right there.
    We were taught as children that in this world, we will never know why, that only God knows the reasons for taking unbaptized infants, aborted babies and adults not yet baptized.

    Knowing that God is always most merciful, is it wrong to say that in His infinite mercy and showing His infinite mercy to those departed souls, He took them all from this world when He did because He knew that had He let them go on to live their lives as usual before taking them, that their eternal suffering would have been much worse?

    This is what used to be taught, we also used to be taught that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but somehow, that teaching has been twisted into salvation via a BOD where the road to heaven is paved with good intentions - and believed by many.    
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #203 on: September 08, 2017, 08:11:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
    And what about areas of the world where there is strife and war? Or in the Communist countries during the Soviet era? Or Syria or China today? Are those who seek baptism under God's special protection to ensure that they will be baptized after instruction? What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?

    Meg, you have an incredibly weak notion regarding Divine Providence.  God arranges ALL matters for the good.  This teaching goes back to the beginnings of the Church -- it's THE recurring theme in the works of St. Augustine.  God knows everything and arranges everything.  He sometimes allows people to die without Baptism (e.g. even infants who have not committed actual sin), etc.  God allows evils to take place, but in the midst of it all He has plans for His elect.  Just as He might will that one person be born into a Catholic family and another into a tribe of savages in a rain forest, He might will one person to receive Baptism and another not to receive it.

    I don't understand how this is even a question in your mind, and it involves a scary lack of faith.  So if God has willed that only those who receive the Sacrament of Baptism be saved, He will arrange matters in such a way that His elect WILL receive the Sacrament without fail.  Emotional arguments have no place in Catholic theology.

    Quote
    Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator. (Saint Augustine)



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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #204 on: September 08, 2017, 08:50:38 AM »
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    • Such good responses!  It is encouraging to see so many who still understand that we can never understand God's inscrutable ways and should never try and impinge upon His sovereignty goodness.
    I would paraphrase a Psalm, "He who commands will also grant the means".

    As Ladislaus aptly points out, the essence of this is belief and total trust in God. 

    This is a generation which has been raised on the soft theology of good will and salvific ignorance, rather than docile submission to God's justice and complete trust in His mercy which are always in perfect union and harmony.

    It is His will that all will be saved, who would be saved. And they will accordingly. The saved need no special dispensations outside of fidelity to Him and His commandments.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #205 on: September 08, 2017, 08:55:41 AM »
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    • Yes, this actually turned into a decent discussion once LoT dropped off.  I imagine it won't be long before he resumes his disruptive spamming.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #206 on: September 08, 2017, 08:58:23 AM »
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    • I was just about to say the same thing.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #207 on: September 08, 2017, 09:01:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 08, 2017, 08:55:41 AM
    Yes, this actually turned into a decent discussion once LoT dropped off.  I imagine it won't be long before he resumes his disruptive spamming.
    C'mon just admit it, you miss your bud LoT. You aren't fooling anyone. 

    Seriously though, you dudes are like...


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #208 on: September 08, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on September 08, 2017, 09:01:25 AM
    C'mon just admit it, you miss your bud LoT. You aren't fooling anyone.

    :laugh1:

    Not at all.  He's just incredibly frustrating and disruptive.  It was nice to see the rational discussion that ensued after his departure yesterday.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #209 on: September 08, 2017, 09:26:19 AM »
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    • Tornpage,
    Great summary.  I agree.  I was speaking generally, which sometimes one has to do on a forum.  Thx for the additional insights.
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