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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20036 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #180 on: September 07, 2017, 04:15:38 PM »
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    • Maybe this all should go to another thread? Not to mention it's just advertising what a horrible monster poopy meanie head dummy face "yuck" someone seems to think Ladi is. 

    Then again, six of one once LoT is done. 

    Right order? No.

    Right reason? ....
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #181 on: September 07, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 04:09:55 PM
    Correct, and when a such man is deficient in following God's law he is lost, and loses salvation. The doctrine of the fewness of the saved adverts to this.

    It could not be clearer.

    If it could not be clearer, then why have there been saints and doctors of the Church who taught BoD? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #182 on: September 07, 2017, 04:19:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 03:24:34 PM
    Regarding what you said about it being speculation about how He would correct some problem with any given man which He did not foresee, I'd like to ask how freewill fits into this. I don't know if it's a matter of a problem which God does not foresee; it may be a matter of freewill, in that God allows it, and as such, circuŠ¼stances can be altered due to our own freewill choices, or that of others who cross our path.
    Freewill enters in when a man chooses to follow the Divine precepts and do what God has decreed must be done. It is up to each man to answer the sufficient grace with which God has endowed him.
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     the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #183 on: September 07, 2017, 04:25:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 04:19:51 PM
    Freewill enters in when a man chooses to follow the Divine precepts and do what God has decreed must be done. It is up to each man to answer the sufficient grace with which God has endowed him.

    Is there something in Scripture or Tradition which says that we are automatically guaranteed to be baptized, if we choose to be (after instruction, of course)?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #184 on: September 07, 2017, 04:38:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 04:16:46 PM
    If it could not be clearer, then why have there been saints and doctors of the Church who taught BoD?
    Christ's word is all truth and irreducible, the opinions, speculation, and formulae of fallible men is not God's word, it is theirs or their interpretation thereof. This was never a unanimous or even a majority opinion in the early Church, and as it is being proposed today is a relatively recent addition which took on an expansion life of its own during the Gibbons nacent Americanist and ecuŠ¼enist era.
    We have gone from proposed theological possibility to an infallible doctrine which is necessary for salvation without a Council or a Pope formally declaring it as such.
    But in the end, Christ's words are the final word and judgment. That is how the Church understands it, for She is ever faithful to His Gospel and knows no contradictory teaching of it.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #185 on: September 07, 2017, 04:48:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 04:25:35 PM
    Is there something in Scripture or Tradition which says that we are automatically guaranteed to be baptized, if we choose to be (after instruction, of course)?
    "He who believeth and is Baptized shall be saved"   That is to say, if you DO these things.  We are not saved without our co-operation. The only guarantee is our diligent effort to fulfill our obigations to God.  
    If we live up to our part, God is always true to His Word. That is the guarantee.  
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #186 on: September 07, 2017, 04:52:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 04:48:13 PM
    "He who believeth and is Baptized shall be saved"   That is to say, if you DO these things.  We are not saved without our co-operation. The only guarantee is our diligent effort to fulfill our obigations to God.  
    If we live up to our part, God is always true to His Word. That is the guarantee.  
    ... and if there were such a guarantee of being baptized by choice i.e volition, then what are we addressing again and, more to the point, why?

    Miller time?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #187 on: September 07, 2017, 05:02:52 PM »
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    It is not God who is imperfect or in anyway deficient. It is us humans who are imperfect and deficient, especially when it comes to allowing what God wants to accomplish. I can give quite a few examples of this, if you like.
    1.  God knew from all eternity that you and I would be born.  He knew our parents, the color of our hair, our favorite ice cream, etc.  He knew all this before He even created Adam and Eve.  He knows what we will do tomorrow; what prayers we will or will not say; what we will eat; who we will talk to.

    2.  God wills all men to be saved.  If they are not saved, it is not because He does not give them opportunity, but because they did not cooperate with His opportunities and graces.

    3.  Free will is not God's fault.  It is our choice to accept or reject graces.  Sometimes God will almost 'force' a soul to convert, by overwealming it with grace, in order to accomplish His will.  Other times, it seems, a soul gets only a few chances, compared to others.  But this is the exterior view.  We cannot read hearts.  We cannot see the interior grace that God provides, only the exterior.  Therefore, if a soul dies without baptism, God allowed him to die for a reason and this soul's lack of baptism can only be blamed on his lack of cooperation with grace.  God's judgements are always just!

    Human nature wants to understand the mysteries of salvation, which is never possible.  BOD is an attempt to become 'like God' and to understand/explain the impossible.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #188 on: September 07, 2017, 05:14:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on September 07, 2017, 05:08:45 PM
    Permit me to "modify" that a bit.
    God chose His elect before the foundation of the world. Not based on what prayers he heard us say before we said them, etc. - based purely and gratuitously on His choice.
    We're staring to get to the top of the water slide that leads to this cesspool of heresy we're in.
    This is a very " traditional" back and forth, not quite as prone to error as the Trinity, but seems to be, for the aforementioned cause and because it is a distinct topic, I suggest searching for it or creating it if it doesn't already exist.

    This plate is over full as is, and some of its contents are more for out than in, if you get my meaning.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #189 on: September 07, 2017, 05:19:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on September 07, 2017, 05:14:49 PM
    Good idea.
    About all that I have to contribute in this instance. Thanks. 

    When S. Thomas has "trepidations" about a subject, it wouldn't be entirely ridiculous if maybe a little pee gets away from us. 
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #190 on: September 07, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on September 07, 2017, 05:23:17 PM
    Did St. Thomas say he had "trepidations" abou this subject? I don't recall that.
    Not exactly in those words. More a distinct impression. 

    I'm hardly an expert, although you get a sense reading people. On some subjects he's "jazzy", free, confident, but on others he's very constrained, less free with his expressions, like walking on a frozen pond. He needs to, because "right order, right reason" those are the next steps. 

    You are probably aware of this, and it saddens me because, like with the other arts, you don't see the very deliberate, eminently reasonable organization of a truly good, truly, through and through, Catholic  mind any more.

    It's that apologetic, that polemic again. We're all getting dumber. We're a bunch of yokels trying to grasp what far better minds of far better times are trying to give us. 

    Sin really does darken, you know? Looking to the past, ecclesial and otherwise, shows that starkly if we only pay attention. 

    Anyway blah blah blah. Perspective check and warning. I barely cleared high school man, and I rarely did homework so mind you don't mind the mindless.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #191 on: September 07, 2017, 05:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2017, 05:02:52 PM
      BOD is an attempt to become 'like God' and to understand/explain the impossible.

    Actually, I believe that it is the opposite. Some people are repelled by the idea of mystery, and need to have everything cut-and-dry. Sedevacantistism tends toward this - no mystery - everything black-and-white. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #192 on: September 07, 2017, 05:46:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on September 07, 2017, 05:23:17 PM
    Did St. Thomas say he had "trepidations" about this subject? I don't recall that . . . but understand the sentiment.  
    PS.

    I will say this though, to "Gump" and Marine proof it and  in crayon of course; without getting into the nitty-gritty of "causes", ultimately if it's good, it's God, not us. That's kind of the point, no? 

    At minimum, errors of expression are practically unavoidable the more involved the subject, no?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #193 on: September 07, 2017, 05:52:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 04:48:13 PM
    "He who believeth and is Baptized shall be saved"   That is to say, if you DO these things.  We are not saved without our co-operation. The only guarantee is our diligent effort to fulfill our obigations to God.  
    If we live up to our part, God is always true to His Word. That is the guarantee.  

    And what about areas of the world where there is strife and war? Or in the Communist countries during the Soviet era? Or Syria or China today? Are those who seek baptism under God's special protection to ensure that they will be baptized after instruction? What I want to know is if there is a Catholic teaching that says that catechumens will have the protection of God to ensure that they will be baptized. Could you please address this specifically?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #194 on: September 07, 2017, 05:55:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 05:45:40 PM
    Actually, I believe that it is the opposite. Some people are repelled by the idea of mystery, and need to have everything cut-and-dry. Sedevacantistism tends toward this - no mystery - everything black-and-white.
    "Si si! No no!"




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