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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20080 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2017, 03:04:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 03:00:46 PM
    Sounds reasonable. From a practical POV, since God is the author of the Sacraments, why would He be only able to work within the confines of the sacraments. It seems that in certain circuмstances, he could offer his grace outside of the Sacraments, if He so chooses.

    Again, it's not a question of what God CAN do but of what God DOES do.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #166 on: September 07, 2017, 03:07:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 07, 2017, 03:04:12 PM
    “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)
    Thank you. It's pretty bad when Stalin questions the validity of the gulags. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #167 on: September 07, 2017, 03:11:49 PM »
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    • St. Augustine:

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    Evacuatur autem (scil. crux Christi) si aliquo modo praeter illius sacramentum ad iustitiam vitamque aeternam pervenire posse dicatur (Aug. de nat. et grat. 7. 7). [Whoever thinks that one can arrive at justification and eternal life in any other way than through the sacrament of the cross of Christ empties it of value].

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    Absit enim, ut praedestinatus ad vitam sine sacramento mediatoris finire permittatur hanc vitam (Aug. c. Julianum. 5, 4, 14) [Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator]

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    An eos et ipse praedestinat baptizari et ipse quod praedestinavit non sinit fieri? (Aug. de nat. et orig. an. 2, 9, 13). [Is it possible that (God) himself predestines people to be baptized and then he himself does not allow to happen what he has predestined?]

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    But the grace of faith in some is such that it is insufficient for obtaining the kingdom of heaven, as in the catechumens and in Cornelius himself before he was incorporated into the Church by receiving the sacraments; in others, the grace of faith is such as to make them the body of Christ and the holy temple of God. As the Apostle says: ‘know you not, that you are the holy temple of God’ (1 Cor. 3:16); and also the Lord Himself: ‘Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, the beginnings of faith have a certain similarity to conceptions, for in order to attain life eternal, it is not enough to be conceived, but one must be born. And none of these is without the grace of the mercy of God, because when works are good, they follow that grace, as was said, they do not precede it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #168 on: September 07, 2017, 03:13:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on September 07, 2017, 03:07:16 PM
    Thank you. It's pretty bad when Stalin questions the validity of the gulags.

    Indeed, Rahner wrote the book "Anonymous Christian" where he promotes LoT's ecclesiology and soteriology.  But at least Rahner had the INTELLECTUAL HONESTY to ADMIT that the Church did not believe in this.  Unlike a Fr. Laisney and others who falsely claim "unanimous consensus".  They should be ashamed that a modernist like Rahner has more integrity and honesty than they do.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #169 on: September 07, 2017, 03:15:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on September 07, 2017, 03:11:58 PM
    BOD is completely negotiable and means something different to each person you speak with.    
      

    Indeed.  And that constitutes PROOF that this has never been defined by the Church.  Never has the Church obliged people to accept something as nebulous as this.  I am required to believe in something but I don't know what that something is.  Hogwash.

    No, BoD is codeword for the only non-negotiable aspect of BoD, namely, that "the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation" (i.e. a direct contradiction of Trent).

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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #170 on: September 07, 2017, 03:16:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 03:00:46 PM
    Sounds reasonable. From a practical POV, since God is the author of the Sacraments, why would He be only able to work within the confines of the sacraments. It seems that in certain circuмstances, he could offer his grace outside of the Sacraments, if He so chooses.
    The whole concept that God, who in all of His acts and attributes is infinitely perfect, would need to circuмvent what He has decreed to be the order of Salvation for all men who will be saved.  One must make the presumption upon the Divine Perfection to propose that it is in someway deficient and thus imperfect as to accomplishing what He has willed.
    This is not Faith in His omnipotence and perfection, it is a speculation about how He would correct some problem with any given man which He did not forsee.
    Christ has said what He has said. It is ours only to accept and submit and not to question or add. If He has said that water Baptism is necessary, then true Faith dictates that we do not guess, but only to know with certainty that it will be done to all who will be saved.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #171 on: September 07, 2017, 03:24:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
    The whole concept that God, who in all of His acts and attributes is infinitely perfect, would need to circuмvent what He has decreed to be the order of Salvation for all men who will be saved.  One must make the presumption upon the Divine Perfection to propose that it is in someway deficient and thus imperfect as to accomplishing what He has willed.
    This is not Faith in His omnipotence and perfection, it is a speculation about how He would correct some problem with any given man which He did not forsee.
    Christ has said what He has said. It is ours only to accept and submit and not to question or add. If He has said that water Baptism is necessary, then true Faith dictates that we do not guess, but only to know with certainty that it will be done to all who will be saved.

    Regarding what you said about it being speculation about how He would correct some problem with any given man which He did not foresee, I'd like to ask how freewill fits into this. I don't know if it's a matter of a problem which God does not foresee; it may be a matter of freewill, in that God allows it, and as such, circuмstances can be altered due to our own freewill choices, or that of others who cross our path.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #172 on: September 07, 2017, 03:25:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on September 07, 2017, 02:37:29 PM
    The New Testament, translated to English at the College of Rheims, 1582 (16th century): Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."
    I am unable to determine how annotations in a particular Bible can be used in order to contradict the Council of Trent. 
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #173 on: September 07, 2017, 03:31:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on September 07, 2017, 02:52:07 PM
    another conflation anyway. God not contradicting Himself is =/= to "binding himself"

    That's like, if you'll pardon the comparison, saying that water is "bound" to be wet.

    GOD CAN'T LIE.
    You are certainly correct here--that God cannot lie. So apply this to His declaration: "Unless a man be born again of water..." Now,when you purposely deny this declaration, and you will do this, LoHate, you know you will, then you call His Majesty a liar. All Father Feeney wanted to do was to protect the Veracity of God, a divine attribute equally as important as is his Goodness and Mercy. This is an attribute none of you Boders consider and respect. For you people there is always something impossible for the Divine Omnipotence; hence the insult to Him.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #174 on: September 07, 2017, 03:34:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on September 07, 2017, 03:11:58 PM
    I've found that everything concerning a BOD is negotiable...  Implicit desire, explicit desire, only applies to Catechumens, implicit faith, explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation, is a sacrament, not a sacrament, etc.    

    BOD is completely negotiable and means something different to each person you speak with.    
      
    SEZ YOU!!!...

    ... oh, right.

    Sorry.

     :-[
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #175 on: September 07, 2017, 03:37:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
     One must make the presumption upon the Divine Perfection to propose that it is in someway deficient and thus imperfect as to accomplishing what He has willed.
    :applause:
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #176 on: September 07, 2017, 03:47:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Motorede on September 07, 2017, 03:31:36 PM
     For you people there is always something impossible for the Divine Omnipotence; ...
    ... except for true impossibilities like violation of metaphysical certainties, God being able TO LIE, God needing, by extension, nigh infinite "Mulligans", creating, well, creation yet not being able to "fork over" a thimbleful of water, not being ABLE to have an INFALLIBE transmission be INFALLIBLY received, therefore rendering the INFALLIBLE teaching FALLIBLE for everyone else, (if we can't know "for sure", then what exactly do we really know at all, or believe? "What's that Lord? I'm sorry, I know you did that gift of tongues thing, but you're really not making yourself very clear today"  etc., etc, ad nauseam.

    RIDICULOUS

    LUDICROUS 

    PREPOSTEROUS 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #177 on: September 07, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on September 07, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
    One must make the presumption upon the Divine Perfection to propose that it is in someway deficient and thus imperfect as to accomplishing what He has willed.

    It is not God who is imperfect or in anyway deficient. It is us humans who are imperfect and deficient, especially when it comes to allowing what God wants to accomplish. I can give quite a few examples of this, if you like.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #178 on: September 07, 2017, 04:06:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on September 07, 2017, 04:00:06 PM
    Since God does not command impossibilities (Council of Trent), and he commanded that one must be born again of WATER to be saved (John 3:5), how could it ever be impossible to receive the Sacrament of Baptism?

    Your use of the term "impossible" exaggerates what I said. If you would like to rephrase that, I can comment. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #179 on: September 07, 2017, 04:09:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 07, 2017, 03:48:27 PM
    It is not God who is imperfect or in anyway deficient. It is us humans who are imperfect and deficient, especially when it comes to allowing what God wants to accomplish. I can give quite a few examples of this, if you like.
    Correct, and when a such man is deficient in following God's law he is lost, and loses salvation. The doctrine of the fewness of the saved adverts to this.

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    He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned

    It could not be clearer.
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