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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20094 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #150 on: September 07, 2017, 01:55:35 PM »
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  • St. Catherine of Sienna (14th Century): Dialogue of St. Catherine: Baptisms: 

    Of dubious authenticity (possible interpolated by those taking dictations), possibly contaminated with personal opinion, somewhat incoherent, and contradicting the teaching of Trent regarding the Sacrament of Confession.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #151 on: September 07, 2017, 01:56:02 PM »
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  • Hey, LoT, I'm still waiting for you to produce a quote from a Doctor that promotes your brand of Pelagianism.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #152 on: September 07, 2017, 01:57:59 PM »
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  • Council of Trent (16th century)Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #153 on: September 07, 2017, 02:09:12 PM »
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  • This passage from Aquinas is riddled with mistakes.  Bases it on the authority of St. Augustine, without realizing that Augustine retracted the opinion.  And Augustine cited Cyprian, who reasoned falsely from the Good Thief because Baptism had not been made obligatory yet.
    Bad matter, not bad form at least  in your first instance though, to be completely fair. 

    GIGO. Right way, wrong "stuff"

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #154 on: September 07, 2017, 02:13:49 PM »
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  • Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century)The Sacraments, Baptism: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #155 on: September 07, 2017, 02:35:49 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica, Whether there are two ways to be distinguished of eating Christ's body?
    “Consequently, just as some are baptized with the Baptism of desire, through their desire of baptism, before being baptized in the Baptism of water; so likewise some eat this sacrament spiritually ere they receive it sacramentally.”


    Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?
    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."

    Whether the Baptism of Blood is the most excellent of these?
    "The shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desire. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act."

    Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
    Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

    "...Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

    It is clear here that St Thomas only considered bod a possibility, showing his uneasiness, having weighed it time and again. Fortunately for him, and us, Trent since clarified that you cannot have Baptism without water, and you cannot have salvation without Baptism.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #156 on: September 07, 2017, 02:37:29 PM »
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  •  The New Testament, translated to English at the College of Rheims, 1582 (16th century)Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #157 on: September 07, 2017, 02:38:05 PM »
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  • "...Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

    It is clear here that St Thomas only considered bod a possibility, showing his uneasiness, having weighed it time and again. Fortunately for him, and us, Trent since clarified that you cannot have Baptism without water, and you cannot have salvation without Baptism.
    He is quoting Augustine.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #158 on: September 07, 2017, 02:39:54 PM »
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  • The words of Aquinas himself are not wavering:

    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for." 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #159 on: September 07, 2017, 02:48:54 PM »
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  • The New Testament, translated to English at the College of Rheims, 1582 (16th century): Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."
    LoHate: in many of these cases the omnipotence of God is doubted or ignored. This is an insult to Him. "Nothing is impossible with God". 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #160 on: September 07, 2017, 02:52:07 PM »
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  • LoHate: in many of these cases the omnipotence of God is doubted or ignored. This is an insult to Him. "Nothing is impossible with God".
    another conflation anyway. God not contradicting Himself is =/= to "binding himself"

    That's like, if you'll pardon the comparison, saying that water is "bound" to be wet.

    GOD CAN'T LIE.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #161 on: September 07, 2017, 02:59:44 PM »
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  • Maybe so...  But the words of Saint Augustine are certainly wavering.  He had to weigh Cyprian's argument again and again because he couldn't point to any Church teaching on a BOD - He's merely stating his opinion, based on the opinion of another fallible human being.

    Also, it should be noted that by considering the example of the good thief, we can already see where St. Cyprian has erred in his argument.  Of course, we know that the Sacrament of Baptism wasn't obligatory until AFTER the resurrection, so the good thief died under the old law.    
      

    Not only that but St. Augustine forcefully retracted his position on BoD in his more mature anti-Pelagian days when he realized that it leads to Pelagianism (such as it did for LoT).  Some of the strongest anti-BoD statements on record from from St. Augustine.

    But you won't find LoT quoting St. Augustine's rejection of BoD.  So much for being a lover of truth.
     

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #162 on: September 07, 2017, 03:00:46 PM »
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  • The New Testament, translated to English at the College of Rheims, 1582 (16th century): Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."
    Sounds reasonable. From a practical POV, since God is the author of the Sacraments, why would He be only able to work within the confines of the sacraments. It seems that in certain circuмstances, he could offer his grace outside of the Sacraments, if He so chooses. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #163 on: September 07, 2017, 03:03:18 PM »
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  • Sounds reasonable. From a practical POV, since God is the author of the Sacraments, why would He be only able to work within the confines of the sacraments. It seems that in certain circuмstances, he could offer his grace outside of the Sacraments, if He so chooses.
    Because He does what He says? Again, this is conflation. 

    God is "bound" to keep His word, or is that negotiable too miss/ma'am?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #164 on: September 07, 2017, 03:04:12 PM »
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  • “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)