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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20036 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2017, 12:39:18 PM »
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  • All I contend it's that Trent is the measure when there is a contradiction. Trying to reconcile the difference by gutting Trent using saints and theologians does not resolve anything, but complicates everything, while also rendering null the teachings of that great Council.
    This means you understand Trent better than those qualified to understand it and teach us what it means.  You are more qualified than two sainted doctors for instance.  This puts you in rather elite company and we are honored to have you posting here but your time would be better served authoring theology manuals to clarify controversial issues for the clergy.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #136 on: September 07, 2017, 01:04:42 PM »
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  • This means you understand Trent better than those qualified to understand it and teach us what it means.  You are more qualified than two sainted doctors for instance.  This puts you in rather elite company and we are honored to have you posting here but your time would be better served authoring theology manuals to clarify controversial issues for the clergy.  
    No, it means I'm not trying to make a case for bod. Clearly, they were. They were mistaken. It happens.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #137 on: September 07, 2017, 01:13:08 PM »
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  • No, it means I'm not trying to make a case for bod. Clearly, they were. They were mistaken. It happens.
    I'll leave it at that.  Thank you for being honest and not avoiding the question.
    God bless.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #138 on: September 07, 2017, 01:23:10 PM »
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  • St. Fulgentius (6th Century): Enchiridion Patristicuм 2269: "From the time when Our Saviour said 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,' without the sacrament of baptism, apart from those who pour forth their blood for Christ in the Catholic Church without baptism, no one can receive the kingdom of Heaven, nor eternal life."

    LoT is too obtuse to realize that this quote entails a rejection of BoD.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #139 on: September 07, 2017, 01:25:45 PM »
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  • Pope Innocent II (12th Century)From his letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, "We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written: 'Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.' Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the 'priest' mentioned." (Denzinger 388)
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #140 on: September 07, 2017, 01:33:18 PM »
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  • Pope Innocent II (12th Century): From his letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, "We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written: 'Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.' Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the 'priest' mentioned." (Denzinger 388)
    The only thing learnt from thrown books is how to take cover.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #141 on: September 07, 2017, 01:34:15 PM »
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  • You are more qualified than two sainted doctors for instance.

    More feminine emotional "argumentation" from LoH.  Doctors, as holy and learned as they may be, CAN be mistaken, and one can, from time to time, disagree with one or another of their opinions on a subject ... especially on those matters where they are expressing their own opinion vs. a teaching or position of the Church.  That can be done without any disrespect and can be done without someone claiming that they are more qualified or more learned and more holy than the Doctors.  Abelard, by all accounts NOT a saint, questioned an opinion put forward by St. Augustine and held unanimously for 700 years before him.  And the Church sided with Abelard (who lived a scandalous life) over the holy St. Augustine ... on this particular issue.

    So, yes, yes indeed, I disagree with St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine on the meaning of Trent.  Most Feeneyites do not.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #142 on: September 07, 2017, 01:35:50 PM »
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  • St. Bonaventure, Doctor of the Church (13th century)In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies." 

    Centiloquij, Tertia pars and De Sacramentorum virtute, Lib. VI: "There are three distinct forms of Baptism, namely that of fire, that of water and that of blood. Baptism of fire is that provided by repentance and the grace of the Holy Spirit, and purifies from sin. In Baptism of water we are both purified from sin and absolved of all temporal punishment due to sin. In Baptism of blood we are purified from all misery."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #143 on: September 07, 2017, 01:42:36 PM »
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  • Pope Innocent II (12th Century): From his letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, "We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written: 'Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.' Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the 'priest' mentioned."

    Pope bases this opinion not on his (papal) authority but on the authority of Augustine and Ambrose.  Augustine later rejected this same opinion and Ambrose's position was ambiguous at best.  This is a letter addressed to a single Bishop and not a teaching given to the Universal Church.  Consequently, it meets NONE of the notes for infallibility and represents little more than the Pope writing as a private Doctor.  Nevertheless, he insists that Catholic faith and confession of the name of Christ, i.e. profession of the true faith, were required for this benefit.  Where's LoT in quoting this requirement for BoD?  [crickets chirping].

    St. Thomas Aquinas ripped on Pope Innocent for writing an opinion, in a very similar letter, that transubstantiation occurred even if a priest merely THOUGHT the words of consecration.

    Where's LoT quoting Innocent III who taught, in a very similar letter, that those who experience BoD go STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN WITHOUT DELAY when they die ... thereby REJECTING the later opinion of St. Alphonsus who taught that they were still subject to Purgatory?  [crickets chirping]

    LoT selectively quotes when the quotes promote his agenda.  He is not the least bit honest and is in no way searching for truth.  He is no lover of truth, but a lover of himself only.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #144 on: September 07, 2017, 01:43:29 PM »
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  • More feminine emotional "argumentation" from LoH.  Doctors, as holy and learned as they may be, CAN be mistaken, and one can, from time to time, disagree with one or another of their opinions on a subject ... especially on those matters where they are expressing their own opinion vs. a teaching or position of the Church.  That can be done without any disrespect and can be done without someone claiming that they are more qualified or more learned and more holy than the Doctors.  Abelard, by all accounts NOT a saint, questioned an opinion put forward by St. Augustine and held unanimously for 700 years before him.  And the Church sided with Abelard (who lived a scandalous life) over the holy St. Augustine ... on this particular issue.

    So, yes, yes indeed, I disagree with St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine on the meaning of Trent.  Most Feeneyites do not.
    If we can't "know better",  then what is dogma for example,  chopped liver?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #145 on: September 07, 2017, 01:44:07 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church (13th century)Summa Theologica, Whether there are two ways to be distinguished of eating Christ's body?
    “Consequently, just as some are baptized with the Baptism of desire, through their desire of baptism, before being baptized in the Baptism of water; so likewise some eat this sacrament spiritually ere they receive it sacramentally.” 


    Whether a man can be saved without Baptism? 
    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for." 

    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?
    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."

    Whether the Baptism of Blood is the most excellent of these?
    "The shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desire. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act."

    Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
    Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #146 on: September 07, 2017, 01:47:25 PM »
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  • St. Bonaventure, Doctor of the Church (13th century): In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies."

    bzzzzt.  False reasoning from St. Bonaventure.   Yes, indeed, God obliges no one to do the impossible.  That's a valid major.  But the assumption Bonaventure implicitly inserts before the conclusion is that Baptism can ever be impossible.  God can always arrange circuмstances in such a way as to render the Sacrament POSSIBLE in all cases.  Consequently, it's true that God doesn't oblige the impossible, because God always makes Baptism possible for his elect.  That's the [correct] teaching of St. Augustine.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #147 on: September 07, 2017, 01:48:50 PM »
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  • Pope Innocent III (13th century)From the letter "Debitum pastoralis officii" to Berthold, the Bishop of Metz, Aug. 28, 1206: "You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: 'I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.' We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: 'Go, baptize all nations in the name etc.," the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another...If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #148 on: September 07, 2017, 01:50:08 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica, Whether there are two ways to be distinguished of eating Christ's body?
    “Consequently, just as some are baptized with the Baptism of desire, through their desire of baptism, before being baptized in the Baptism of water; so likewise some eat this sacrament spiritually ere they receive it sacramentally.”


    Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?
    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."

    Whether the Baptism of Blood is the most excellent of these?
    "The shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desire. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act."

    Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
    Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."


    This passage from Aquinas is riddled with mistakes.  Bases it on the authority of St. Augustine, without realizing that Augustine retracted the opinion.  And Augustine cited Cyprian, who reasoned falsely from the Good Thief because Baptism had not been made obligatory yet.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #149 on: September 07, 2017, 01:51:49 PM »
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  • St. Catherine of Sienna (14th Century)Dialogue of St. Catherine: Baptisms: "I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood, because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed. There is yet another way by which the soul receives the baptism of Blood, speaking, as it were, under a figure, and this way the Divine charity provided, knowing the infirmity and fragility of an, through which he offends, not that he is obliged, through his fragility and infirmity, to commit sin, unless he wish to do so; by falling, as he will, into the guild of mortal sin, by which he loses the grace which he drew from Holy Baptism in virtue of the Blood, it was necessary to leave a continual baptism of blood. This the Divine charity provided in the Sacrament of Holy Confession, the soul receiving the Baptism of blood, with contrition of heart, confessing, when able, to My ministers, who hold the keys of the Blood, sprinkling It, in absolution, upon the face of the soul. But if the soul is unable to confess, contrition of heart is sufficient for this baptism, the hand of My clemency giving you the fruit of this precious Blood... Thou seest then that these Baptisms, which you should all receive until the last moment, are continual, and though My works, that is the pains of the Cross were finite, the fruit of them which you receive in Baptism, through Me, are infinite..."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church