Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 20061 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15309
  • Reputation: +6262/-924
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2017, 09:43:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary. - St. Alphonsus
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15309
    • Reputation: +6262/-924
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #121 on: September 07, 2017, 09:44:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary. - St. Alphonsus

    If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; let him be anathema - Trent
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #122 on: September 07, 2017, 09:45:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Prosper of Aquitaine (5th century): Sentent. Ex S. Aug. n. exlix. col 564 (Quoted in "The Faith of Catholics" (Berington and Kirk) 1846): "They who, without even having received the laver of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ, it avails them as much for the doing away of sins, as if they were washed in the font of baptism."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48200
    • Reputation: +28469/-5325
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #123 on: September 07, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary. - St. Alphonsus

    Sorry, LoT, but if the shoe fits ...

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #124 on: September 07, 2017, 09:47:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • ""But I hear that you are distressed because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism."

    Let us stop St. Ambrose at this point and reflect on what was just quoted.

    All of the faithful that have gathered for the memorial services of the Emperor were grieved. And why were they grieved? St. Ambrose says they were grieved because there was no evidence that the Emperor, who was known to be a catechumen, had been baptized. Now If "Baptism of Desire" was something contained in the "deposit of Faith" and part of the Apostolic doctrine, why then would these faithful be grieved that Valentinlan had not been baptized with water?
    Nvm:
    1. Suspect attribution.
    2. Ambiguous-you could read this that he received the sacrament for example. 


    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #125 on: September 07, 2017, 09:49:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Augustine, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th-5th Century): The Seven Books of Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Book IV, Ch 22: "That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, "To-day shall thou be with me in Paradise." On considering which, again and again, I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism for want of time. For neither was that thief crucified for the name of Christ, but as the reward of his own deeds; nor did he suffer because he believed, but he believed while suffering. It was shown, therefore, in the case of that thief, how great is the power even without the visible sacrament of baptism, of what the apostle says, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment."

    Ch23: "But as in the thief, to whom the material administration of the sacrament was necessarily wanting, the salvation was complete, because it was spiritually present through his piety, so, when the sacrament itself is present, salvation is complete, if what the thief possessed be unavoidably wanting."


    Ch24: "And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity..."


    Ch25: "By all these considerations it is proved that the sacrament of baptism is one thing, the conversion of the heart another; but that man's salvation is made complete through the two together. Nor are we to suppose that, if one of these be wanting, it necessarily follows that the other is wanting also; because the sacrament may exist in the infant without the conversion of the heart; and this was found to be possible without the sacrament in the case of the thief, God in either case filling up what was involuntarily wanting. But when either of these requisites is wanting intentionally, then the man is responsible for the omission. And baptism may exist when the conversion of the heart is wanting; but, with respect to such conversion, it may indeed be found when baptism has not been received, but never when it has been despised."



    From City of God, Book XIII, Chapter 7: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ: For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," John 3:5 made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" Matthew 10:32 and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." Matthew 16:25"


    A Treatise on the Soul and Its Origin, Book II, Ch17, Disobedient Compassion and Compassionate Disobedience Reprobated and Martyrdom In Lieu Of Baptism: "Truth, by the mouth of Itself incarnate, proclaims as if in a voice of thunder: "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And in order to except martyrs from this sentence, to whose lot it has fallen to be slain for the name of Christ before being washed in the baptism of Christ, He says in another passage, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."



    A Treatise On the Soul and Its Origin, by Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo; In Four Books, 419, Book 1, CH 11, Title Of Chapter 11: "Martyrdom for Christ Supplies the Place of Baptism. The Faith of the Thief Who Was Crucified Along with Christ Taken As Martyrdom And Hence for Baptism".



    On the Soul and Its Origin, Book 1, Ch 10: "Moreover, from the time when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven;" and again, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it; " no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ, or death for Christ."

    Are we being punished?

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #126 on: September 07, 2017, 10:17:20 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry, LoT, but if the shoe fits ...
     
    LoT preparing for his diatribe on Cathinfo.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #127 on: September 07, 2017, 11:03:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Fulgentius (6th Century)Enchiridion Patristicuм 2269: "From the time when Our Saviour said 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,' without the sacrament of baptism, apart from those who pour forth their blood for Christ in the Catholic Church without baptism, no one can receive the kingdom of Heaven, nor eternal life."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #128 on: September 07, 2017, 11:06:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Fulgentius (6th Century): Enchiridion Patristicuм 2269: "From the time when Our Saviour said 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,' without the sacrament of baptism, apart from those who pour forth their blood for Christ in the Catholic Church without baptism, no one can receive the kingdom of Heaven, nor eternal life."
    The Council of Trent corrected this and other saints.  There is no justification or salvation without the sacrament of Baptism.  

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #129 on: September 07, 2017, 11:09:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. John of Damascus, Doctor of the Church (7th-8th Century)Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: "The seventh is baptism by blood and martyrdom, which baptism Christ Himself underwent in our behalf, He Who was too august and blessed to be defiled with any later stains."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #130 on: September 07, 2017, 11:11:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • The Council of Trent corrected this and other saints.  There is no justification or salvation without the sacrament of Baptism.  
    Which post Trent theologian (or above) verifies it.  We already understand Bellarmine's and Alphonsus' (Pius IX, X, XII) understanding of Trent.  I say this respectfully, because that should settle it, but I am just seeing if you have any leg to stand on.   
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #131 on: September 07, 2017, 11:37:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Which post Trent theologian (or above) verifies it.  We already understand Bellarmine's and Alphonsus' (Pius IX, X, XII) understanding of Trent.  I say this respectfully, because that should settle it, but I am just seeing if you have any leg to stand on.  
    We've been through this.  Trent's canons on Baptism speak for themselves.  Collectively, these Canons do not admit the non-baptized into heaven.  Drawing inferences, or exchanging other statements as modifying these in any way makes these statements false. Which is IMPOSSIBLE. If every other statement in contention with these canons can undo them, there is no Catholic teaching that matters.  However, if these stand true, as written, and the saints (theologians, etc) were indeed corrected, all remains as the Church teaches.  Observations by saints cannot trump, modify, or change the canons of the greatest Council in the Church. 
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

    It is also known that Justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration of the desire thereof.  Cannot be effected without what?  Cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration (baptism) or without the desire thereof (desire to be baptized) Bod is an extrapolation, an error, because it forces Catholics to modify the meaning of the canons of Trent and misread the statements therein.

    Bod also promotes the notion that faith alone saves.  If Baptism isn't necessary, then faith alone saves, a notion also condemned. 

    Bod destroys the teaching that there is no salvation outside the Church and puts into question all the related teachings by opining the notion that no baptism, only desire can save.  Because this suggests that God commands something impossible to accomplish in some cases is absurd.  If God can provide bod, He can stay within the parameters outlined in Trent and get them Baptism.  All is resolved, Catholic teaching maintained when bod is dismissed.    

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #132 on: September 07, 2017, 11:41:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Is it your contention that Bellarmine and Alphonsus did not properly understand Trent?

    BOD according to the authoritative sources does not teach salvation by faith alone but clearly teaches that one must have perfect charity in order to be saved.  Of that there can be no doubt.  There is no such thing a supernatural charity by desire.  So please remove that as one of your objections.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #133 on: September 07, 2017, 12:30:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it your contention that Bellarmine and Alphonsus did not properly understand Trent?

    BOD according to the authoritative sources does not teach salvation by faith alone but clearly teaches that one must have perfect charity in order to be saved.  Of that there can be no doubt.  There is no such thing a supernatural charity by desire.  So please remove that as one of your objections.
    All I contend it's that Trent is the measure when there is a contradiction. Trying to reconcile the difference by gutting Trent using saints and theologians does not resolve anything, but complicates everything, while also rendering null the teachings of that great Council.

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #134 on: September 07, 2017, 12:33:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it your contention that Bellarmine and Alphonsus did not properly understand Trent?

    BOD according to the authoritative sources does not teach salvation by faith alone but clearly teaches that one must have perfect charity in order to be saved.  Of that there can be no doubt.  There is no such thing a supernatural charity by desire.  So please remove that as one of your objections.
    Since supernatural Charity is that great virtue provided in Baptism, perfect Charity without Baptism is a false hope.