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Author Topic: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor  (Read 11741 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
« Reply #330 on: September 15, 2017, 09:34:35 AM »
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  • Now you're spamming ordinary Magisterium stuff on every thread.

    BoD is not a teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium any more than was the opinion of St. Augustine that was universally held for 700 years but then eventually rejected.
    And caugt cold busted lying, which he now tries to ignore, on a thread the topic of which is what a big smelly meanie pants detractoratin' calmunificator "yur ar!"
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #331 on: September 15, 2017, 09:40:31 AM »
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  • It is a dogma of the Catholic Church that the Church is divinely kept from the possibility of error in her definitive teaching on faith and morals.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #332 on: September 15, 2017, 09:42:14 AM »
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  • It is a dogma of the Catholic Church that the Church is divinely kept from the possibility of error in her definitive teaching on faith and morals.
    "And?"
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #333 on: September 15, 2017, 09:43:31 AM »
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  • Definition of “Infallibility” from “A Catholic Dictionary”, 1951: "This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecuмenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecuмenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #334 on: September 15, 2017, 09:57:14 AM »
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  • It is a dogma of the Catholic Church that the Church is divinely kept from the possibility of error in her definitive teaching on faith and morals.

    Yes, when that teaching has the "notes" of infallibility, i.e. under certain conditions.  But then you types always blur it all together, don't you?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #335 on: September 15, 2017, 10:35:19 AM »
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  • It's hard for me to understand why logic goes out the window when the topic of infallibility comes up.  The church is run by rules - Divine Law, canon law, and doctrine.  If you don't follow the rules, then you don't have the intended outcome. 

    7 Sacraments = require proper matter and form.
    Confession = 5 required acts to be forgiven.
    Holy Mass = 3 principal parts of Offertory, Canon and Communion.
    Reception of Communion = 3 requirements - State of Grace, fasting, age of reason/proper disposition.
    Infallibility per V1 = Apostolic authority, matter of faith/morals, binding of the faithful, to believe with certainty of faith.

    But, it seems for some, that when infallibility comes up, their understanding of it is like a spiritual superpower which is used when the pope decides to use it and it's hard for them to understand.  They'll say:  "When the pope and bishops get together and teach".  Or "When the pope is speaking of faith and morals".  Or worse, "When the pope issues an encyclical."

    All of the above situations are too general.  All of the above COULD be infallible IF the proper REQUIREMENTS are met.  If all the requirements aren't met, then such actions aren't infallible.   

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #336 on: September 15, 2017, 10:58:55 AM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia (1917) in the article on Infallibility, states the same: "Three Organs of Infallibility: 1. the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See (exercised by what theologians describe as the ordinarium magisterium, i. e. the common or everyday teaching authority of the Church), 2. ecuмenical councils under the headship of the pope; and 3. the pope himself separately.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #337 on: September 15, 2017, 11:24:38 AM »
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  • 2. ecuмenical councils under the headship of the pope;

    Vatican II?


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #338 on: September 15, 2017, 11:40:20 AM »
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  • In other words, teaching from the Ordinary Magisterium continually occurs throughout the Church century after century, and the decisions of Popes and Councils (Solemn Magisterium) confine what is taught through the ordinary teaching. Both solemn and ordinary teaching of the Church are considered infallible by this definition. The infallibility of both Solemn and Ordinary Magisterium was solemnly defined by the First Vatican Council (1870) when it stated the following:

    "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #339 on: September 15, 2017, 12:42:30 PM »
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  • "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

    Aw shucks, LoT, you always seem to miss the key passage here.  BoD is clearly not divinely revealed.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #340 on: September 15, 2017, 12:44:10 PM »
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  • To see the reality of this, let us look at one example from the references above. In the Summa Theologica in the 13th century, St. Thomas Aquinas is seen teaching baptism of desire and blood numerous times. A century later, in the 14th century, St. Thomas' writings were thoroughly scrutinized during his canonization process, and he was not shown to be in error on this teaching, and Pope John XXII still chose to canonize him. Two centuries after this, in the 16th century, St. Thomas' writings were again thoroughly scrutinized during the process to make him a Doctor of the Church. Again, St. Thomas was not found to be in error on this teaching, and Pope St. Pius V chose to make him a Doctor of the Church. These processes never would have completed if St. Thomas were teaching heresy. In addition, since the days of St. Thomas Aquinas, there have since been roughly 70 Popes and countless bishops that have certainly read the Summa Theologica, as it is one of the most trusted references in the history of the Catholic Church next to Scripture itself. None of those 70+ Popes and countless bishops ever declared St. Thomas to be in error on this teaching, and none of them have ever challenged his canonization or Doctor of the Church status, nor have any of them ever declared St. Thomas to be a heretic.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #341 on: September 15, 2017, 12:56:56 PM »
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  • Silver lining: he states that he won't communicate with those who don't pretend to/respect him, so there's at least one "shut up" button.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Ladislaus the Calumniating Detractor
    « Reply #342 on: September 15, 2017, 12:58:58 PM »
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  • Church Fathers, Saints, and the other examples above are “not infallible”.

    This argument is also in vain as we can clearly see from the definitions of the Magisterium above that when a teaching of the Church is unanimous, it is part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church, which is itself infallible, according to the solemn teaching of the First Vatican Council. Certainly, when a theologian speaks or writes on a doctrine, that in itself is not an infallible statement; it is when that doctrine is unanimously taught elsewhere in the Church without condemnation that it becomes part of the infallible Ordinary Magisterium.

    Furthermore, to say any of the sources above are “not infallible” is to directly imply that they have been in error for all the years or centuries since they were allowed to propagate, and that the Solemn Magisterium did nothing to correct it. This is to say that the Catholic Church can propagate error and heresy, which is a denial of the dogma of the Infallibility of the Church. It is blasphemy to say the One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Catholic Church can introduce anything harmful to the faithful. 

    Church teaching on the subject:
     Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei, 1794, condemns: ''the Church, governed by the Holy Spirit, could impose a disciplinary law that would be not only useless and more burdensome for the faithful than Christian liberty allows, but also dangerous and harmful" (again, this was condemned). Also, Pope Gregory XVI in Quo Graviora (1833) states, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, all of which truth is taught by the Holy Spirit. Should the church be able to order, yield to, or permit those things which tend toward the destruction of souls and the disgrace and detriment of the sacrament instituted by Christ?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church