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Author Topic: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?  (Read 1180 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2019, 07:49:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 10, 2019, 12:05:20 AM
    The article posted is the extent that I will research this matter.  St Justin is making an argument (opinion).  It’s not some doctrinal statement.
    I didn't say it was dogmatic.  I was arguing against Ladislaus' claim that nobody, before 1600, thought salvation was possible without belief in the Trinity
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #16 on: August 10, 2019, 08:07:36 PM »
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    • This is not relevant.  Several Church Fathers speculated in some possible mechanism for salvation for the "noble pagan" BEFORE Christ.

    They are discussing the old dispensation, not the new.  That unanimity I mentioned was specifically for the new dispensation put in place after the arrival of Christ.

    NOBODY before Christ had explicit belief in the Trinity, since this was not clearly revealed until Our Lord did so (although some argue that it's hinted at in the Old Testament).
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #17 on: August 10, 2019, 08:17:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2019, 08:07:36 PM
    This is not relevant.  Several Church Fathers speculated in some possible mechanism for salvation for the "noble pagan" BEFORE Christ.

    They are discussing the old dispensation, not the new.  That unanimity I mentioned was specifically for the new dispensation put in place after the arrival of Christ.

    NOBODY before Christ had explicit belief in the Trinity, since this was not clearly revealed until Our Lord did so (although some argue that it's hinted at in the Old Testament).
    Which raises the question I've raised before.  What distinguishes Socrates from a Chinese man at the time of Pentecost?  Or a Native American in the 14th century?

    Like it seems logical that their level of revelation they have available is the same.  Why would they have to understand more in order to be saved?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #18 on: August 10, 2019, 09:14:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 10, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
    Which raises the question I've raised before.  What distinguishes Socrates from a Chinese man at the time of Pentecost?  Or a Native American in the 14th century?

    Like it seems logical that their level of revelation they have available is the same.  Why would they have to understand more in order to be saved?
    Question - What distinguishes Socrates from a Chinese man at the time of Pentecost?

    Answer - God placed Socrates at a time before the new covenant and the Chinese man after the covenant. God can enlighten both, if He does not, it is for their own good.

    I repeat, the reason why Fr. Cekada, and people like you, think that way is because :

    Quote
    #1 they think that Hell is an amorphous solid mass of horrific punishments
    #2 they think that people are just born into a situation and God has to deal with them then.
    #3 they think that clear dogma has to be interpreted by theologians


    Those that have eyes to see, let them see:

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #19 on: August 11, 2019, 05:27:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 09:14:25 PM
    Question - What distinguishes Socrates from a Chinese man at the time of Pentecost?

    Answer - God placed Socrates at a time before the new covenant and the Chinese man after the covenant. God can enlighten both, if He does not, it is for their own good.

    I repeat, the reason why Fr. Cekada, and people like you, think that way is because :


    Those that have eyes to see, let them see:

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]
    Of your three reasons I reject the first two. You could validly charge me with number three, and frankly I think that’s always been the case.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #20 on: August 11, 2019, 07:20:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 10, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
    Which raises the question I've raised before.  What distinguishes Socrates from a Chinese man at the time of Pentecost?  Or a Native American in the 14th century?

    Like it seems logical that their level of revelation they have available is the same.  Why would they have to understand more in order to be saved?

    But the Old Testament just (including perhaps the non-Jєωs) were clearly granted knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation before they entered heaven.  It's not as if Aristotle entered heaven immediately upon his death, right?  And that's the difference in the salvation of the Old Testament just.  They in fact WERE missing something that prevented them from entering heaven right away.  They were detained in Limbo until the proper dispositions were supplied.  As I mentioned on the other thread, some Church Fathers even speculated that they were all baptized, and that is the reason they were raised back to life, as reported by the Sacred Scriptures.

    So, as St. Thomas taught, those with the proper dispositions, who followed the natural law to the best of their abilities, these would be enlightened either by direct inspiration or by sending a preacher.  These OT just fell into that category, and therefore, because of their good dispositions, were enlightened by God so they could enter heaven.  But there's no indication that any of them entered heaven without knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.

    But once Limbo disappeared, then the criteria for salvation changed.  The Church Fathers are absolutely unanimous in teaching that the economy of salvation completely changed with the Revelation of Our Lord.  St. Thomas also explicitly teaches this.  So if there were a just Chinese man dying at the time of Pentecost, if in fact the man had the proper dispositions, then the teaching of St. Thomas applies ... that God would have either directly enlightened him with the knowledge necessary for supernatural faith or else would have sent a preacher to him to preach the faith, even miraculously or an angel.  Of course such an intervention would be extraordinary.  If this Chinese man happened to be born in that time or place, there's a REASON, according to God's Providence, that He was born into those circuмstances, the same reason why some infants are aborted and not "given a chance" for slavation (you listening, SeanJohson?).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
    « Reply #21 on: August 11, 2019, 07:22:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 11, 2019, 05:27:51 AM
    Of your three reasons I reject the first two. You could validly charge me with number three, and frankly I think that’s always been the case.

    I'm glad you reject the first two.  In that case, then, since you reject #2, then you understand that there's a reason God had one soul born as a Chinese man who died after Pentecost and another soul to be an Apostle.
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