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Author Topic: Justification  (Read 15382 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Justification
« Reply #195 on: August 08, 2017, 09:36:10 AM »
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    • Hey LOT, all of your quotes are BEFORE the Council of Florence, hence, they must be cast aside, as the Church has spoken definitively, solemnly and infallibly!  Do you not understand this?  Me thinks you just don't want to...
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #196 on: August 08, 2017, 10:14:09 AM »
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    • Ha ha.  The 13th century is BEFORE 1441.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #197 on: August 08, 2017, 10:29:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: tdrev123 on August 07, 2017, 08:52:40 PM
    LoT is almost comical, Stubborn posts the infallible word of God, and he comes back with adjacent fallible quotes from early church fathers.
    He comes back with adjacent fallible quotes from early church fathers that have NOTHING to do with what he is teaching, that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator god.

    There is not one Saint, Doctor, Father of the Church or pope that taught what he believes and the reason he post incessantly. He is accused of being a Pelagian precisely because he teaches that that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator god. 

    LOT is has either lost the faith or his marbles.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #198 on: August 08, 2017, 11:50:34 AM »
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    • Ha ha.  The 14th century is BEFORE 1441.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #199 on: August 09, 2017, 05:27:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 08, 2017, 11:50:34 AM
    Ha ha.  The 14th century is BEFORE 1441.
    This is all the Feeneyites can do.  Take glee in such an error because they cannot undermine the truth in regards to the infallible teaching of BOD.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #200 on: August 09, 2017, 09:20:46 AM »
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    • Here's what you don't get - the Church allows theologians to speculate on topics until She speaks definitively on them.  So, up until 1441, the Church allowed discussions, theories and debate on areas of BOD.  However, in 1441, the Church's ex cathedra, infallible, doctrinal statement at the Council of Florence (see below) is THE END to many of the BOD discussions (Note, I did not say it is the end to "all" BOD discussions.  There are still some questions that need to be explained more thoroughly, like what happens to a non-baptised, but justified catholic-studying-catechumen.  We do not know this answer, doctrinally.  That's why we are free to debate it).

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives;...and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Any theologian's opinion before 1441 which contradicts the Council of Florence is to be ignored.  It's wrong.  The Church has spoken!  And any theologian, especially the saints, who wants to be in good standing with the Church, always says that their opinions are subject to Rome's authority, and they will recant such opinions if Rome ever declares a doctrine which is in disagreement with theirs.  Remember, saints and theologians are not infallible.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #201 on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:42 AM »
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    • Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

     Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #202 on: August 09, 2017, 11:41:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
    Here's what you don't get - the Church allows theologians to speculate on topics until She speaks definitively on them. 

    THIS ^^^

    For nearly 700 years no theologian disputed St. Augustine on a theological point that was later rejected by the Church.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #203 on: August 09, 2017, 11:44:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 09, 2017, 11:41:47 AM
    THIS ^^^

    For nearly 700 years no theologian disputed St. Augustine on a theological point that was later rejected by the Church.
    The Church has spoken definitively. 
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #204 on: August 09, 2017, 01:15:49 PM »
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    • Yes, through the Council of Florence, which has been pasted like 10x on this thread.  Anyone, anywhere (including you and ANY other theologian) MUST understand and interpret ANY B.O.D. theory through Florence's infallible statement.  This statement comes directly from the chair of St Peter and outweighs any other person/persons on earth.  So if a theory, after 1441, contradicts, minimizes or undermines Florence's statement, it's erroneous.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #205 on: August 09, 2017, 01:17:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2017, 01:15:49 PM
    Anyone, anywhere (including you and ANY other theologian) MUST understand and interpret ANY B.O.D. theory through Florence's infallible statement. 

    Indeed.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #206 on: August 09, 2017, 01:18:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2017, 09:20:46 AM


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives;...and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


    The entire teaching of Pope Eugene is that no “work” NOT EVEN MARTYERDOM justifies unless it is joined to “faith”.  Faith and the desire to do the Will of God, the person martyred who has perfect love and faith is saved.  Just as a Perfect Act of Contrition takes away a personal mortal sin, does this Perfect love remove an inherited sin IF THE SOUL HAS FAITH.  Your will means everything to God. 

     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #207 on: August 09, 2017, 01:26:03 PM »
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    • That's your opinion and the opinion of others WHO ARE NOT THE CHURCH.  You are engaging in protestant-ize false interpretations.  If you want to know what the pope meant, you need to read the commentary from the Council of Florence.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #208 on: August 09, 2017, 03:42:00 PM »
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    • Pope Eugene was speaking about schismatics who broke away and was warning them, unless they ....  

    You know the rest of the words.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #209 on: August 09, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
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    • Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives;...and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Myrna, you might want to re-read the highlighted quotes.  It applies to all non-catholics.  And you MUST believe this, or else you deny an essential dogma of the Faith.
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