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Author Topic: Justification  (Read 16616 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Justification
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2017, 09:39:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 07, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
    Expounders of error do serve a purpose in God's plan. Without them here on this ghetto forum of "Feeneyism", there would be no discussion or research into the subject of EENS, and the novel teaching of Vatican II that Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists ect. can be saved by their belief in a creator God. the PILAR of the Vatican II religion.
    No argument on this either, same with Lad's reply, yet the truth of the matter is also meant to be known by the BODers, so what is it that not only prohibits them from seeing it, it must also cause them to reject it so?  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #91 on: August 07, 2017, 09:42:19 AM »
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    • Emotion clouds reason.  As +Williamson often says, people want a "nice" God.  Therefore, when they read 'outside the church there is no salvation', it doesn't sound nice, so, they conclude, there MUST be other meanings to this doctrine.  'The wish is father to the lie'.

    The other problem is that we are so used to politicians/religious/media lying to us, for the last 100 years, in ALL areas of life, that modern man has destroyed the true meaning of words.  How often do public persons openly lie and then they, and their supporters, say they 'mispoke' or 'they were mis-interpreted' or 'misunderstood'.  (Answer:  NO, THEY LIED!)  The constant misuse of words, the double-speak, and the ambiguous language (V2 was great at all of this) - these are all communistic mind games; tactics to destroy thinking.  We've all been affected to some degree, with imprecise and untruthful language and we have therefore been conditioned to not take words for their true meaning.  Basically, the destruction of Scholastic thinking.  
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #92 on: August 07, 2017, 10:26:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on August 03, 2017, 02:46:29 PM
    Yes, too bad your interpretation of Aquinas leads you to deny Our Lord's Divine commands. The Church has words to describe such people.
    Is it incorrect to interpret Aquinas' teaching BOD as teaching BOD?  My point is Aquinas was well aware of the Bible verses Merry points out and still taught BOD.  Do you deny this fact? 
    The question is rhetorical as I already know when a valid point is made with the Doctor of the Church the Feeneyites attack the poster and ignore the teaching from the Sainted Doctor.  Or callously claim "he was not infallible" that is their get out of jail card free card even though they have to claim hundreds of others which are Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Popes and theologians who teach as he did "are not infallible", basically claiming we aught not trust anyone but Feeney, the Dimonds, and the professional feeneyite idiots who post here. 
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #93 on: August 07, 2017, 10:29:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 07, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
    Emotion clouds reason.  As +Williamson often says, people want a "nice" God.  Therefore, when they read 'outside the church there is no salvation', it doesn't sound nice, so, they conclude, there MUST be other meanings to this doctrine.  'The wish is father to the lie'.

    The other problem is that we are so used to politicians/religious/media lying to us, for the last 100 years, in ALL areas of life, that modern man has destroyed the true meaning of words.  How often do public persons openly lie and then they, and their supporters, say they 'mispoke' or 'they were mis-interpreted' or 'misunderstood'.  (Answer:  NO, THEY LIED!)  The constant misuse of words, the double-speak, and the ambiguous language (V2 was great at all of this) - these are all communistic mind games; tactics to destroy thinking.  We've all been affected to some degree, with imprecise and untruthful language and we have therefore been conditioned to not take words for their true meaning.  Basically, the destruction of Scholastic thinking.  
    Are you speaking of the Bishop Williamson who teaches BOD.  Emotions clouds reason and the ability to make distinctions such as the fact that non-members can be saved within the Church.  Everyone from Catholic theologians through the pope get this but the feeneyites and lay-posters on forums do not or will not.  So of course we are supposed to trust the lay-posters over Aquinas, Bellarmine and Liguori. 
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #94 on: August 07, 2017, 10:54:48 AM »
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    • See what I meant by the merry-go-round, above they are mentioning St. Thomas and Alphonsus Ligouri after I had posted this below! Shear insanity.


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    "BODers ask (they use) the question, what happens to a person who is justified before baptism, and dies without baptism? The answer they all end at in my experience is: Jews, Hindus, Mohamedans, Buddhists.... etc can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. What that has to do BOB or the justification quote from Trent or a catechumen wanting to be a Catholic or St. Thomas, and St. Alphonsus Ligouri,  I have not a clue



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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #95 on: August 07, 2017, 11:03:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 10:26:23 AM
    Is it incorrect to interpret Aquinas' teaching BOD as teaching BOD? 

    No, but it is incorrect to interpret Aquinas' teaching BoD as teaching Pelagianism and as teaching that non-Catholics can be saved.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #96 on: August 07, 2017, 11:09:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 07, 2017, 11:03:32 AM
    No, but it is incorrect to interpret Aquinas' teaching BoD as teaching Pelagianism and as teaching that non-Catholics can be saved.
    Why do you foam at the mouth instead of making a valid point and backing it up with an authority higher than you?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #97 on: August 07, 2017, 11:15:04 AM »
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    • Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession
    Pope Pius XII - October 29, 1951


    Supernatural life

    Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness - the beatific vision of God are impossible.  An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is NOT open.


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12midwives.htm
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #98 on: August 07, 2017, 11:27:38 AM »
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    • To all Bod'ers: You are destroying the Sacrament of Baptism.  If Baptism isn't necessary as bod'ers claim, then baptism isn't necessary at all.  Why?  Because bod has no provable parameters. That alone should give pause to the bod'ers, but it never does.  They don't care, except to point out their own view, which can never be verified within the language which they claim teaches bod.  A Catholic concerned about the state of the Church should instantly become suspicious of people attempting to secure another baptism that can never be proven, nor its parameters proven.  While those of us who care enough to discuss bod argue away, the vast majority think extremely liberal things about bod and carry on as though God will save everyone except Jeffry Dahmer and Judas and maybe their mother-in-law. Just because one has a more conservative view of bod doesn't mean one is not facilitating the destruction of baptism and the sacramental system, because no matter how hard you explain to people even the most conservative view of bod, they somehow come away with, "God is merciful and none of this matters as long as we say baptism is pretty important."  There is a book out there with a very impressive title called The Salvation of Atheists and Catholic Dogmatic Theology that promotes the notion that even 'unbelieving atheists' are probably saved, without express knowledge of God, and without Faith. This least common denominator approach to bod is the standard by which all bod'ers live: God saves people despite Baptism, despite the Catholic Church and despite His own teachings and commands.  If you don't believe it, get into a bod argument about how it works and you'll not only see the extent of opposing views, but one clear objective amongst the baptism-isn't-necessary crowd: bod exists and not believing it is worse than believing even the most liberal version.  Now, with less clarity than you had before, but confirmed that bod exists, just pick your level, and wring your hands as you watch the Church disintegrate.          
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #99 on: August 07, 2017, 11:31:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 11:09:39 AM
    Why do you foam at the mouth instead of making a valid point and backing it up with an authority higher than you?

    I've explained to you a hundred times already how it is that you promote Pelagianism.  Then you cite St. Thomas as an authority to back up your position ... as if the latter himself shared your Pelagian views.  I have demonstrated this repeatedly.  It is only you who foam at the mouth.  You have never even attempted a refutation of my charge that you are a Pelagian.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #100 on: August 07, 2017, 11:34:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 07, 2017, 11:31:04 AM
    I've explained to you a hundred times already how it is that you promote Pelagianism.  Then you cite St. Thomas as an authority to back up your position ... as if the latter himself shared your Pelagian views.  I have demonstrated this repeatedly.  It is only you who foam at the mouth.  You have never even attempted a refutation of my charge that you are a Pelagian.
    What is gratuitously asserted is gratuitously denied.  I do not make up my theology but get it, unlike the feeneyites in regards to their particular heresy, from genuine Catholic sources.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #101 on: August 07, 2017, 11:34:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 07, 2017, 11:31:04 AM
    I've explained to you a hundred times already how it is that you promote Pelagianism.  Then you cite St. Thomas as an authority to back up your position ... as if the latter himself shared your Pelagian views.  I have demonstrated this repeatedly.  It is only you who foam at the mouth.  You have never even attempted a refutation of my charge that you are a Pelagian.
    I can repeatedly accuse you of being Pelagian and hope it sticks but then I would be lowering myself to your level.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #102 on: August 07, 2017, 11:38:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 07, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
    Emotion clouds reason.  As +Williamson often says, people want a "nice" God.  Therefore, when they read 'outside the church there is no salvation', it doesn't sound nice, so, they conclude, there MUST be other meanings to this doctrine.  'The wish is father to the lie'.

    The other problem is that we are so used to politicians/religious/media lying to us, for the last 100 years, in ALL areas of life, that modern man has destroyed the true meaning of words.  How often do public persons openly lie and then they, and their supporters, say they 'mispoke' or 'they were mis-interpreted' or 'misunderstood'.  (Answer:  NO, THEY LIED!)  The constant misuse of words, the double-speak, and the ambiguous language (V2 was great at all of this) - these are all communistic mind games; tactics to destroy thinking.  We've all been affected to some degree, with imprecise and untruthful language and we have therefore been conditioned to not take words for their true meaning.  Basically, the destruction of Scholastic thinking.  
    What you say is true, yet they read the same words of Our Lord and the same infallible decrees but - "They read meanings into words which the words they hear do not say, while they fail to advert to what the words do say". They take speculations from the fathers and saints and teachings from catechisms over infallible decrees. Why do they do this?

    They believe that the language used within the Church pre-V2 was just as ambiguous as the new language of V2 itself - that nothing says what it means, that explicit teachings are not understandable without those interpretations that contradict what the Church actually means.
     
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #103 on: August 07, 2017, 11:39:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on August 07, 2017, 11:15:04 AM
    Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession
    Pope Pius XII - October 29, 1951


    Supernatural life

    Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness - the beatific vision of God are impossible.  An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is NOT open.


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12midwives.htm

    Yet another error by Pius XII is this same tragic allocution.  This is where he opens the door to NFP as Catholic birth control (even for "eugenic" reasons) ... which became an absolute horror for Catholic moral principles.  That's why I know of so many Trad couples married for 20 years who end up with 3 children (not due to medical causes).

    Here he erroneously states that an act of love suffices to supply for the lack of Baptism.  Supernatural faith is required also, AND the desire for Baptism ... that's why it's called Baptism of Desire.  Trent did NOT teach that perfect contrition sufficed in lieu of Confession to restore a souls to a state of justification but that this contrition must be accompanied by the intention/desire to go to Confession.  So Pius XII misfires here again ... even IF you believe in BoD.  That's why so many Trad Catholics basically have the same ecclesiology is taught by Vatican II.

    Pius XII has a great deal of blame for the horror of Vatican II that came in his wake.

    Pius XII hired Bugnini and enabled him to begin his liturgical experimentations.

    Pius XII started the first interfaith dialogue meetings.

    Pius XII opened the door to evolution.

    Pius XII opened the door to NFP as Catholic birth control.

    Pius XII opened the door to the new ecclesiology.

    Pius XII appointed most of the Bishops who brought us Vatican II.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #104 on: August 07, 2017, 11:40:37 AM »
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    non-members can be saved within the Church. 
    This is so contradictory that I am speechless.  It makes no sense.  You have proved my point that modern man's mind is lost.
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